Alarm Bells should be ringing
Submitted by Goatch on Sun, 2009-05-03 13:41
Did anybody else read David Greens column in the latest Fishing World about some of the new rules and regs that have been introduced in to Queensland , especially the rule that slipped under the radar with a new maximum size of 1.5mtrs on all sharks , guess that puts an end to all gamefishing for sharks over there , I thought Greeny's comments about anglers being forced to release 2m bull sharks back into the canals pretty well hit it on the money , How far are we going to let the Greenies and Tree Huggers go , and politicians that are only in it for the votes , makes me wild just thinking about it ,,,,,
HHmm Better go and get a beer I think .
____________________________________________________________________________
Just one more cast , honest !!! 
scottywiper
Posts: 247
Date Joined: 09/03/08
Goatch, haven't seen Fishing
Goatch, haven't seen Fishing World yet, but heard about the article in question.
I did a comment piece for the Sunday Times today on the topic of the greenies and what they want in WA waters.
It's about time people put apathy aside and made some noise, or prepare for some major changes to our fishing lifestyle.
Ewan
Posts: 271
Date Joined: 15/05/06
would it really change your life?
Are they allowed to catch and release sharks over 2m? if so - so what?
is there any need to catch kill and hang them? got to remember they dont breed much and are a very important part of the food chain...
everyone has their opinion and good on you guys for writing yours - we are in interesting times as the natural world is changing around us, because of us. i dont mean any disrespect to you by the following, but these are my answering opinions (this also makes me wild, and i might have to go and have another Turkey):
would it put an end to marlin or sailfish gamefishing if you werent allowed to kill them? i think not. there would be a handful killed each year as it is now, and that could easily be dropped to zero once people got over the need to kill and brag about line classes and whatnot. can you imagine people lasso-ing kangaroos with string and chasing them till they can kill them, and having competitions and records about it? tell me how it is different...it is, however, much different to kill them for food, rather than 'sport'.
big sharks need to be protected as they take a certain role in the ecosystem, keeping other fish populations healthy.
it would be a rare marlin that got weighed in that was later eaten, and likewise for big sharks - not like you can keep them on ice for the day. not like they are going to taste any good.
I guess sharks dont deserve to live in the canals then? cheeky buggers, who do they think they are? swimming around in the water like that...water is for people - ay?
I think its about time people - fishos - realised what we have in this state, compare it to other places in the world, and protect it forever...go anywhere else comparible in the world, or even the country and you dont get the big fish like we do - we have been saved by a low population and inaccessible water - but that is changing.
Dampier Archipelago has been flogged and is a shadow of its former self. yeah you can still get fish there, but you never used to need 20ft boats to do it, as far as i have been told. used to get dhufish in row boats off Marmion - there are photos around that prove it. evidently we cant rely on fisheries legislation to protect fish stocks - there needs to be some areas you cant take fish (or anything) from.
do you guys think we shouldnt have national parks? tell me how it is different to having representative marine parks/protected areas. The 'greenies' (actually, majority of the voters - that is democracy, fellas) want representative areas of marine environment in marine reserves, same as national parks on land. Currently there are none on the south coast, Pilbara or Kimberley.
Actually, it is true that the new government was not elected on the platform of marine park implementation or fisheries change. but then again they werent really elected on any platform other than that they werent the ones who called an early election. Actually, neither of the Liberals or National parties were elected in their own right at all!!! strange democracy we have.
'politicians only in it for the votes' - yeah. that is what they do. that is what they are meant to do. if they do things that wont get them votes, they get voted out, and then they cant do things...and so on...they do the things we want them to do. we tell them what we want by voting on their policies. therefore their policies need to reflect what we want, if they want our votes.
is Ningaloo buggered for fishing now there is a marine park with 30% sanctuary zones? I think not. I am here on a fishing holiday right now and we arent having any problems with sanctuary zones, catching heaps of fish and loving the fact that there are some places where it is (or should be) untouched. I dare say the dive industry is too. and the 'greenies' and 'tree-huggers'. seems like everybody wins more or less??
There is ample evidence from around the world that it keeps the fishing good to have areas where you cant take anything. doesnt that make it a good thing for our fishing lifestyle? to keep catching fish? sounds pretty good to me.
has it changed our lifestyle to have to release cod over 1m long? that sure put the brakes on the old rope-and-winch brigade taking big cod and groper. what a travesty!! the shape of fishing has been changed forever!!! we dived with two big potato cod that were in the middle of some kind of mating ritual the other day...i can tell you that was a much bigger thrill than hanging one up from a gantry...
i wish there had been much more protection in place 2, 3 or 4 decades ago so that i might have seen the fishing that was around then. I hate to think what things will be like if people resist more conservation of the marine environment. We managed to fish out many areas of the coast without the technology or large boats available today, in years past. i've seen the change in fishing in my lifetime...what of future generations? you cannot tell me they will have the same fishing that we do, if the status quo is maintained.
bloody tree-huggers - the old-growth forests they saved would be much better off as re-growth, or blue-gum plantations, ay? they ruined it for everyone. i hate driving and walking through old-growth forests. all those native species would be better off extinct. bloody do-gooders, tree-huggers and greenies.
Cheers,
Ewan
Proud contributor to Fishwrecked-Reeltime:
http://fishwrecked-reeltime.com/
Ewan
Posts: 271
Date Joined: 15/05/06
never looks that long
in the box that you type you post into...
Cheers,
Ewan
Proud contributor to Fishwrecked-Reeltime:
http://fishwrecked-reeltime.com/
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
used to get dhufish in row
used to get dhufish in row boats off Marmion - there are photos around that prove it.
This is still possible at certain times of the year, though people do tend to venture further out for higher productivity.
evidently we cant rely on fisheries legislation to protect fish stocks - there needs to be some areas you cant take fish (or anything) from.
Well we should be relying on fisheries legislation. They are in the business of fisheries management.
do you guys think we shouldnt have national parks? tell me how it is different to having representative marine parks/protected areas.
You cant fence fish like you can Kangaroos. A blanket target closure to 30% of the Western Australian productive water where the fish are seems so patriotic, a worthy cause. To the non-fisher it seems such a worthy cause. It may seem that way until the tax man seeks the lost revenue to pay the people in the business of the park management after the loss GST and internal tourist dollar revenue has gone to other countries via fishing vacation. Fishers dont stop fishing. There is alreayd a culture shift to offshore fishing vacations.
The 'greenies' (actually, majority of the voters - that is democracy, fellas) want representative areas of marine environment in marine reserves, same as national parks on land. Currently there are none on the south coast, Pilbara or Kimberley.
Tell me the difference between a National park and a Marine Park?
A blanket closure will shut out many non-endangered species too.
People want to have that feel good Im saving the planet. The pollies love it. People feel better. We can make absolute radical changes by preventing people from doing many things in regards to access to many areas. National parks that prevent access for recreational purposes. Its great removing people from areas. An easy task and cheap on the surface. The duty is however that those "large" areas have to be patrolled at millions of dollars.
Many feel that the loss in tourist revenue both internal an external will just fold back into the local economy via a shift into other local activities.
Keep in mind there is many limits in regards to size, possession, trip, boat etc in place.
Even with current laws there seems to be little effect on the ones doing the wrong thing. There is not enough inspectors to cover the ground now let alone massive amrine park regions instead of controlling it at the boat ramp points.
The fact is many democratic voters wouldnt have half the respect or the knowledge of the ocean that many fishers do. Right now when the majority of voters go to the poll theyll be contemplating their future employment position foremost and the feel good vote for marine parks may sway a few to a Green vote which will mean Labour pull a preferential to get over the line.
Some industries occur in different areas but if a percentage of their business is lost they are unviable and close the business in regional areas.
So, if a 30% designated target closure occurs. Contemplate how that will impact the "broad" range of industries that employ a lot of people that produce a lot of tax revenue for fisheries management.
Employment loss even when a big percentage of the species in those marine parks are non-endangered species. Marine park closures are like Napalm. They are indescriminant.
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word
scottywiper
Posts: 247
Date Joined: 09/03/08
Hi Ewan,Well done on
Hi Ewan,
Well done on responding, you make many good points and I agree on many of them. I am as conservation minded as anyone and if you read what I wrote in today's paper I am for no-take zones and marine parks...we have the chance to do some really good stuff in WA, where as you say, "everybody wins".
But that is not what these groups want - they want to close off huge areas of ocean to fishing. And not just any locations - Recherche Archipelago, Capes to Capes, Rottnest Trench. We can close areas without picking all those off major cities and towns.
We should have our say and contribute to a positive outcome for all, not allow the process to be sidetracked by well-funded conservation groups with an ideological opposition to fishing.
Also, why do you think we don't have any areas in the North-West? Because mining interests won't let it happen. So the attention has switched to the South-West and some people with heavy mining interests are leading the chorus, having been previously silent. Convenient for them hey? They get to be green and continue to make squillions off the natural environment. Win-win for them.
Kelvin8r
Posts: 475
Date Joined: 12/08/08
Well Said Mate!
Well Said Mate!
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
We could solve Anthropogenic
We could solve Anthropogenic global warming tomorrow by taking every car on the globe off the roads. So why dont we?
We need commerce to generate revenue to run the economy.
Theres a price to pay. This is a "Labour" federal decision to overide state managment funded by people in another country driven by advertising.
A 30% closure is always going to sound like the correct answer. Remove people.
Marine parks have their place designed correctly. But this latest move isnt desgined correctly its taking all the cars off the road.
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
Tell me how we manage to
Tell me how we manage to land a multi-billion dollar LNG plant smack bang in the middle of turtle breeding ground this year yet fishers can no longer catch and release Bonefish as a sustainable tourism industry which actually potentially puts money in regional Exmouth?
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word
big john
Posts: 8765
Date Joined: 20/07/06
Bonefish Tourism
Is this the recently established Exmouth Bonefishing charters your referring to?
Like to hear more about that decision if it is. PM if you prefer Saltatrix.
John
I head a little FURTHER NORTH each year,
Leave the cities behind, out of sight of mind,
.......
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
Jigs available online in my web store!
scottywiper
Posts: 247
Date Joined: 09/03/08
Just realised, Ewan, are you
Just realised, Ewan, are you the same chap that works with Jessica Meeuwig and the Marine Futures team at UWA, that I met at Jock Clough's house recently?
Dreamweaver
Posts: 4688
Date Joined: 01/12/07
Balance
I'm also not against Marine Parks (no go areas if you like). But there needs to be balance and consensus (how many times have I and many others said that). I'm not a fan of Jessica Meeuwig (and I'm not alone, I know).I don't decry Jessica's passion, but, it get's back to the same old arguement - emotion vs actual data.
I'm a responsible fishing person, always take far less than my bag limit (and that's not always due to bad luck/skill), and I wouldn't have joined RFW if I wasn't interested in fishing for the future, correct fish handling etc etc.
'politicians only in it for the votes' - yeah. that is what they do. that is what they are meant to do. if they do things that wont get them votes, they get voted out, and then they cant do things...and so on...they do the things we want them to do. we tell them what we want by voting on their policies. therefore their policies need to reflect what we want, if they want our votes
Ewan, I DO respect your passion (and commitment to long posts LOL), but I wish politics were that simple. Perhaps if the 'we' was ubiquitous' (singlular) we'd all be happy - but many politicians just do things to keep there seats and earn a cushy retirement (slap me if I appear cyncical!). Problem therefore is that there are many different interest groups that are not a collective - they conflict discordantly to many different degrees.
....actually, majority of the voters - that is democracy, fellas - sorry Ewan, I can't accept that. Voters (one hopes) vote on a plethora of issues, that MIGHT include something/anything to do with fishing, let alone the far more complex issues of marine ecology/bio-sustainment/unemotional data/creal surveys etc etc. So, talking about majority (especially when you point out that there was no single party majority in the last election) is something I just cant buy.
BUT, and I mean this, thanks for the post, hopefully it will get people out of their seats and less lethargic.
Colin Molloy
RECFISHWEST Member
(Colin 2 - Co-founding member of the prestigious Colin Club)
Soon to be de "dreamweaver" ed!
Ewan
Posts: 271
Date Joined: 15/05/06
Wrong spellling
scottywiper - not the same person mate, same name to the ears though...
i gotta go and will come back, but in brief - i'd like to know more about this bonefishing charter closure...
scottywiper, i did not get a conservation-minded point of view from your article in the west...it should be mentioned that there are already marine park planning processes in place in the capes area and dampier, and both as i understand it have very significant concessions to rec fishing - in fact i have seen a post by TerryF on this website where he claimed a victory for rec fishing in that no-take areas in the capes marine park process has been cut back to something like 10% (less than the 30% scientific paradigm for conservation) - directly to benefit rec fishers. so it seems the system works, ergo we need more of this...
agreed with you scottywiper - more emphasis on the threatened northern/north-western areas is sorely needed...in the face of impending development. Why wouldnt you write a piece in the west about that? instead of writing against conservationists? on one hand, one group (resource development) will result in destruction of X square kilometres, on the other hand, the other group (conservationists) want to protect a similar area...which is best to support??? which one should be written about?? i must admit that i dont always read it...forgive me if you already have written such a piece.
similarly - saltatrix...have you been so vocal about the Gorgon development (Barrow) as marine parks??? I agree that it is wrong...but it actually hasnt been approved yet, still with the EPA and environment minister...why dont you write a letter to her???
it needs to be stated for the record that marine parks never exclude fishing from the park, only a certain amount of the area within the park - Ningaloo Marine Park has 30% of its area closed to fishing, which is supposed to be worlds best practice and is the most in WA and I think even in Australia - and EXMOUTH IS A FISHING MECCA - AND FISHING TOURISM DRIVES A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE EXMOUTH ECONOMY. Along with dive tourism, often diving in sanctuaryzones. Tell me where it has killed the economy...
I have to go, but would like to make some more points regarding this percieved loss of income purported by saltatrix...
saltatrix...yes, people sure do go further offshore in Perth these days...in search of 'higher productivity'...ummm, yeah, like because that is where the fish are, because they have been caught out of shallower waters...the photos i refer to (apparently - i actually haven't seen them) have several, BIG dhufish, caught on one day, from a single rowboat. dont even try and tell me the fishing off Perth is the same as it used to be...
Cheers,
Ewan
Proud contributor to Fishwrecked-Reeltime:
http://fishwrecked-reeltime.com/
scottywiper
Posts: 247
Date Joined: 09/03/08
Apologies for getting you
Apologies for getting you confused with someone else Ewan!
I won't go into it too deeply, we could bounce pretty valid points back and forth all day, but sufficed to say the piece I did in the Sunday Times was an attempt to provoke fishers into getting involved in the process, or at least being aware of it.
I mentioned in there that I was for no-take zones and marine parks, but the chief aim of the piece was to balance the strongly pro-marine parks campaign running, with a number of stories skewed that way in the West, and then there is the ads on TV.
It was always intended to be from the rec side of the argument, as I don't think that point of view has been heard much at all by the general public (those who aren't fishos).
I have met with many of the parties involved in all this and I remain convinced we can get a good balance that will suit almost everyone, and protect fish stocks.
It doesn't have to be one way or the other.
As for the North-West and Broome in particular, we have run a fair bit on that in Western Angler in recent times, with Bluey Vaughan very vocal and I echo your concerns on that.
Cheers,
Scotty
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
similarly - saltatrix...have
similarly - saltatrix...have you been so vocal about the Gorgon development (Barrow) as marine parks??? I agree that it is wrong...but it actually hasnt been approved yet, still with the EPA and environment minister...why dont you write a letter to her???
Im all for it "if" it is managed well. If it provides revenue to manage that area better then thats a good thing. Tutles venture much further than Barrow. Theyve been tracked across the Pacific.
it needs to be stated for the record that marine parks never exclude fishing from the park, only a certain amount of the area within the park - Ningaloo Marine Park has 30% of its area closed to fishing, which is supposed to be worlds best practice and is the most in WA and I think even in Australia
Ive heard "worlds best practice" too many times. Isnt that what was said about the Lobster industry? If you take 30% of the worlds cars off the road its worlds best practice.
nd EXMOUTH IS A FISHING MECCA - AND FISHING TOURISM DRIVES A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE EXMOUTH ECONOMY. Along with dive tourism, often diving in sanctuaryzones. Tell me where it has killed the economy...
You might wish to refer to the Shark bay scenario. Theres more to go in Exmouth over the next decade.
Yeah I hear the Eco tourism boats are lined up on the Whale Sharks. So much so that time monitoring devices have to be put on vessels to prevent over stressing the animals with over stays.
Pursuing Salmon at Rotto is already harder to do.
There already have been proposals for compulsary log books for recreational fishermen and they have clearly been knocked back.Why? Even tags.
Thats Worlds best practice for ya.
Your missing the point on this Ewan. Your mistaking me for anti-management.
With many areas already proposed the television advertising campaign proceeds.
This is the beginning Ewan.
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word
Goatch
Posts: 1011
Date Joined: 03/07/07
An emotive little subject
to be sure , and I think I have been spanked well and truly LOL,but it's good to see some livley discussion on a topic which will impact on fisho's across the state .
As far as marine parks go I have no problem with them in principal , but when a decision is made to lock the fishing public out of an area , based purely on a politician being seen to adhere to an election promise to appease the Green vote (ie David Greens column in Fishing World),and don't tell me that this hasn't happened before and will again in the future(maybe I'm a touch cynical).
Just one more cast , honest !!!
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
saltatrix...yes, people sure
saltatrix...yes, people sure do go further offshore in Perth these days...in search of 'higher productivity'...ummm, yeah, like because that is where the fish are, because they have been caught out of shallower waters.
I wont elaborate for obvious reasons. Fish are still caught shallow but people have better boats and travel wider not just for the argument of serial depletion. To say anything was like it was 60 years ago is dellusional.
As stated before in a thread in the past Im for a 2 Dhufish and Baldchin per boat limit inside the metro commercial exclusion zone.
Manage it at the ramps not attempt to have fleets of patrol boats looking for recreationals inside a spatial areas that many dont have the technology to ascertain.
I was all for compulsary log books and tags as a means of ascertaining extraction quantities in areas and told to get stuffed. All shore point managed by inspectors at ramps.
Goatch I can assure you Im not acting under the guise of emotion. I think there is better solutions and dont see that PEW support of WWF and Jessica seeking funds for UWA as a objective move.
Do some more research on PEW and check the findings a decade down the track.
I dont think Federal Labour stand a lot of chance of another term without potential seats from the Greens.
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
Keep in mind WA is 3.5
Keep in mind WA is 3.5 times the size of Texas. Were talking big here when you consider size.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy your witch to burn. Credit cards welcome.
What was the Spanish inquisition anyrate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word
Ewan
Posts: 271
Date Joined: 15/05/06
Mis-quote
Apologies to TerryF - I mis-quoted him when I said that he said that he called it a 'victory' for recreational fishing to restrict no-take zones in the proposed capes marine park. The words actually used were "oustanding achievement". The quote I was referring to is:
Recfishwest and a few other dedicated recreational fishermen worked very hard and kept the closed areas in the coming Capes Marine Park to just 11% and in Walpole/Nornalup to 0% which is an outstanding achievement considering the possibilities.
in http://fishwrecked.com/node/8509
I dont see much difference between "victory" and "outstanding achievement", but there you go.
I'm not going to be able to bat against several bowlers on this one...got some fishing to do
...but a couple of points of reply:
saltatrix - I'm not sure what about Shark Bay you are referring to but I cannot see that the establishment of a marine park which includes no-take zones (very little in this park is no-take - bugger-allski) has impacted the community economy negatively, with the corresponding increase in marine tourism - which is the fastest growing form of tourism I am led to believe. I admit though that I dont know alot about the Shark Bay story and stand to be corrected. But I do know that the near-collapse of the snapper and subsequent closure to fishing had a pretty dramatic impact on them and their fishing dollar. Cant blame that one on the marine park...Who knows but maybe having a big no-take zone in the snapper breeding areas may have prevented such a thing...reckon? the snapper got flogged by people obeying the fisheries law didnt they?
If there has been some retraction in fishing tourism to Shark Bay since the marine park was established you would be very hard pressed to attribute that to the establishment of no-take areas, given that bugger-all of this park is no-take. Hamelin Pool is a massive area of no-take, but it is hyper-saline...not much fishing to be had in there, so it doesnt count in the context of this discussion.
You see land in Exmouth and Jurien Bay being sold as "having a marine park on your doorstep" - seems to be a selling point.
Dreamweaver - LOL yeah i guess my comments on politics are a little simplified...not going to go into a discourse on the political system on this post...
I have seen polling results which demonstrate that most people want more marine parks and no-take, and indeed it seems even on this forum we are all in general agreeance so I still think my comments are right.
So - back to the maximum shark limit (original post)...tell me again how it would be bad for rec fishing?
gotta go and stop virtual-fishing, and do some more of the real thing ;-)
Its interesting posting about this stuff with you fellas but geez it can suck the time out of your day!!
Cheers,
Ewan
Proud contributor to Fishwrecked-Reeltime:
http://fishwrecked-reeltime.com/
bod
Posts: 2321
Date Joined: 03/05/06
scottywiper
tried to find your article online, to no avail. Any chance it could be reprinted here for those of us who did not read it in the Sunday Times.
saltatrix
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 30/03/08
I admit though that I dont
I admit though that I dont know alot about the Shark Bay story and stand to be corrected. But I do know that the near-collapse of the snapper and subsequent closure to fishing had a pretty dramatic impact on them and their fishing dollar. Cant blame that one on the marine park...Who knows but maybe having a big no-take zone in the snapper breeding areas may have prevented such a thing...reckon? the snapper got flogged by people obeying the fisheries law didnt they?
It will depend on who you talk to about this on how threatened they actually were.
Never mind it wasnt a marine sanctuary but the tagging system that brought tourism to a slow. As stated before no business relies purely on purely fishing but a drop in revenue from one branch of a business can make the business unviable.
I dont doubt Exmouth has become a fishing mecca. Thats not because of the implementation of Marine Parks but the realisation of an outstanding gamefishing region.
The diving opportunities and of course activities such as Whale Shark visitation.
Hopefully beyond the many that catch and release when fish are taken to eat, possession limits, bag limits and trip limits will make the tourism sustainable.
I hope your right Ewe. I hope Im wrong. We'll both see the result in 5 years then 10.
A victory is when you win. An outstanding achievement is when you are faced with a challenge and take a step forward.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy your witch to burn. Credit cards welcome.
What was the Spanish inquisition anyrate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A
Angling tourism is worth $10 billion to the Australian economy - 90000 jobs; more than any sport; spread the word