Overseas vs Domestic Pricing
Just my two bob worth for Today.
Last year I found a great website in the US where I could purchase spare parts for my Boat motor at about half the price (inc. shipping) then what is being charged here in OZ.
On the same website you can purchase outboard motors. The pricing is as follows 150HP yami 4 st $11K in US, $22 in Australia. So I sent an email to get a quote for shipping to which the reply was we are not allowed to ship to Australia due to supplier agreements.
What is going on here???
So who are these supplier agreements protecting and who is the fat cat reaping these massisve profits.
I do believe Australia have a free trade agreements in place with alot of contries and i would be interested to know if this breaks the rules.
How come the prices have not come down with the Aussie dollar being so strong, who is getting rich from these scams?
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dkonig82
Posts: 2091
Date Joined: 06/07/10
You might not be able to buy
You might not be able to buy it from the supplier themselves, but there is nothing to stop you buying it from someone else over there.
Could approach a dealer who is not a yami supplier and ask them if they will buy it and ship it to you.
If you are serious about buying, send me a PM. I have a 27ft boat coming from Florida in a couple of weeks and can look into shipping the motor inside the boat for a decent price if you are keen. Have contacts over there who can probably source the boat, but only if you are serious about it.
Dan
When asked by a non-fisherman 'how many fishing rods do you really need?' the correct answer is either:
n+1 (where n is the number of fishing rods you currently own); or
n-1 (where n is the number of fishing rods which would cause your significant other to dump you.
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
Thanks for that Dan,
Thanks for that Dan, but I was just hunting around, cause I am not due for a motor just yet (only got 100hrs). I was just doing some snoppying around to see if I could upgrade for a good price. However, when I do decide I need a new Donk I will serously consider importing from US.
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alfred
Posts: 3097
Date Joined: 12/01/07
Check with your shipper, some
Check with your shipper, some do not allow that.
Scouse John
Posts: 8
Date Joined: 11/04/10
Had a similar thing
Had a similar issue with Webber BBQ. Half the price but not allowed to ship it due to supplier agreements. Did a bit of research and there are companies in the states that help you get around this....for a fee of course. The idea being you tell them what you want and where from, you can even give them the URL that relates to the product. They then order the goods and have it delivered to them then forward the goods onto you. Wasn't cost effective for a $400 BBQ but may be for a $22k motor it could pay to investigate.
John
surfer
Posts: 47
Date Joined: 03/05/07
I want to know why our motors
I want to know why our motors are double the price to that in the US (given the US/Aus parity). Are our greedy suppliers ripping us off or is there a good explanation cos I'd loved to hear what bullsh!t they can come up with to justify the price difference. Any local suppliers out there want to have a crak at explaining the disparity?
Lastchance
Posts: 1273
Date Joined: 02/02/09
Nothing worse than paying too
Nothing worse than paying too much for a Webber - one of lifes big hurdles......
mullows
Posts: 738
Date Joined: 25/12/08
There is a company in the US
There is a company in the US called Bongo (ggogle it), probably others as well. In effect you order the product you want and they send it to a warehouse (Bongo) that then sends it on to you. You are still liable for the shipping and the GST etc however the company you are buying it from aren't (Yammie dealer) breaking their agreements as it has been sent to a purchaser within the US. Make sense hope so...it does to me.
Cheers
Mullows
The Older I get the better I was :-)
big john
Posts: 8749
Date Joined: 20/07/06
Bongo
Hey Mullows, have you used bongous yourself? If so, how did you find their service?
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
Jigs available online in my web store!
mullows
Posts: 738
Date Joined: 25/12/08
Hey JohnHave had a look at it
Hey John
Have had a look at it a few times and from what I can tell it works a lot better if you combine multiple items from different stores. To be honest mate, most of the time I buy one off things where the difference is negligible. Interested to see if a large ticket item is significantly cheaper though.
How are things up North? Might give ya a hoy in the hols as there is a chance we could up that way for a fish. Have the Montes on the calender as plan (A) but judging the way the easterlies are hammering us early this year, plan (b) may come into effect.
Cheers
Mullows
The Older I get the better I was :-)
nightfish
Posts: 327
Date Joined: 18/10/10
Tax tax tax tax tax
We pay more tax than any first world country bar Canada, hence the excess pricing. Import Duty, sales tax GST. Then the company tax BLAH BLAH BLAH
I work in Liquor and we pay a WET tax and then we pay GST on that TAX!!!! Thats right a tax on a tax
As far as supplier agreements go it is an agreement between company and distributor, suppliers actually pay for the sole rights to distribute within a country and to me its fair enough it remains that way. In saying that there is always ways around those rules by finding suppliers in areas that just want to sell and dont care where it goes!
joe m
Posts: 278
Date Joined: 21/03/11
import tax!
nightfish is spot on! you cant dodge the tax man! look at the price of ciggies here haha
Joe M
Tony Halliday
Posts: 2500
Date Joined: 14/06/07
overseas can be cheaper, but
overseas can be cheaper, but local will always have back up and a warranty.
once you weighed that up, the choice becomes if you want to support local dealers and whats the price saving?
I these days only buy local for 99% of my needs in marine electronics and fishing gear, unless I can't get it here.
With the strong Aussie dollar now, you can get good local bargins if you hunt around and work the local shops.
ps dodging tax can lead to heaps more sh!t than you want if they come after you. Pay your 10% GST and be happy.
also check fuel issues, as some models from the USA need to have ethanol free fuel at all times.
but yes it can be a rip off.
An example in another industry is repalcement engines for small planes.
local sourced new engine was $56k plus fitment, same model & make in USA with free fitment was $27K WTF....
also check about complaince plate issues and emmisions etc... not sure how they effect outboards, but I have huge issues with a replacement KTM motor I brought in and now can not get it through the pits! for rego
Tony Halliday: ~Meals on Reels ~
It takes a strong fish to swim against the current. Even a dead one can float with it
"It is always in season for old men to learn." Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
"In a mad world only the mad are sane." Akira Kurosawa (1910-1998)
glastronomic
Posts: 892
Date Joined: 16/02/11
It always is a good thing to
It always is a good thing to shop/check around for gear and even for insurance etc.
I got a HDS5 for $799 while just down the road the very same item was $300 dearer, while they are supposetly a dealer with a great many years representing this brand.
According to them , they cannot buy the units for that price wholesale and want to know where this was purchased!
Even with insurance some boatyards are trying it on by charging you, in my case $260 just for the report to the insurer, older boat, with according to them, no guarantee that the boat would be even eligable to be covered.
This while others do the report and place the cover with the company then and there.
In a competative market, with the internet at the ready, these sorts of things could be very dangerous for the long term viability of a buisness.
But what would I know, just guessing and hoping the people that work in those kinda run operations will keep having a job to go to.
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
If you import a motor you
If you import a motor you will still need to pay your taxes just like the local dealers. I just want to know a good explanation on the price differences. Similarly, the free trade agreement we have with the US is meant to reduce these taxes so in effect you just pay the GST and your shipping costs.
The way I see it the these items are all produced by a manufacturer and the dealers sell. The dealer does not garantee the the item the manufacturer does. However, if we are going to dwell on warranties, how much is a warranty worth if i can purchase two motors for the price of one in Australia.
Look after the local dealers you say, so they can rip us off when we get a service on the motor and still don't do a proper job. Its a free market out there guys and the world has become a small place so I say look after yourself and get the best deal you can wether that is local or not.
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dom77777
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 30/01/08
i couldnt agree more
your 100 percent right 2 motors for the price of one ,,,funny how locall dealers try the bs about the warranty ..most of the time not worth the paper its written on .i say good on the people who get a bargain it might make australian dealers sit up and do something about the prices we paying here ,but in saying that got a lot to do with this circus of a govenment running the show ...
dom77777
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
144 boats per month are
144 boats per month are landing here in Perth from overseas..That has been the stat since about 13 months ago..
A good guess is that not all boat dealers will still be around after much longer.
As a Marine Dealer what Sh-ts me is people go buy overseas but then when they need help they expect the local shops to support them and give FREE advice on setup. IS that fair?
For want of a better way to explain the cost of buying local or overseas. I'd ask you this. Why is it that in the USA goods are cheaper? But then why is that in the USA i could employ someone for half the price? Would anyone like to work for me for half the price so that i can sell products cheaper to local customers?
Its called economies of scale and government expenses. Thats why products cost so much more here than abroad.
No warrety cost, no after sales expense built in.. Even i could sell cheaper with those two benifts.
One last point, don't be upset when you have to buy from places like BCF that offer no service. Because slowerly they will be the only ones who will be able to compete..
alfred
Posts: 3097
Date Joined: 12/01/07
Free trade agreement - its
Free trade agreement - its tax free only if all components are manufactured in the USA. If say you buy a Yammy or Suzuki that is made in Japan or a Mercury that is made in China - no free trade waivers apply.
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
One last point if its okay to
One last point if its okay to import product from overseas because its cheaper is it okay for me to bring in labour to work for me from overseas..That way i can pay them alot less and therefor pass on a more competitive price?
SO if i own a bricking company and i bring in Indains who will work for half the rate thats okay? Or a tillering company, or painting firm? This is exactly the same argument but i guess most of you will say no we should support local jobs..
Can't have your cake and eat it too!
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
Bit different when its a
Bit different when its a product that was manufacturered by the chinese (or japanese or whoever) and the price here is twice the price in the US, who sourced it from the same place. All of the 'after wholesaler cost' will not add up to the difference. We're not talking about an aussie built product vs a overseas built product. Dont know how it is with motors, but for a lot of items, its just blatant price gouging by the middlemen. If I can buy something retail from the US, get it shipped over individually by airmail in a few days and it costs less than the retailers cost price, you know somethings going on.
Actually, a good example was when I bought a camera lens. The distributor matched a price with an overseas source (picked it up from the retailer). RRP was 750 or something but I got it for 430 (which is what I could get it for from HK incl shipping). Now, I dont understand why the distributor would do this if they didnt make any money (they still offer local warranty). So wheres this extra $200+ going normally?
From the items I looked at it, it was rarely the retailer who was the gouger (so not having a go at you Rod). In the US and Australia, I suspect they would operate on similar margins (perhaps a little lower in the US), but that doesnt add up to half the price. (well, a lot of items have 100% markup, but i'm talking big ticket items like electronics, reels, etc).
E.g. say a motor is 22k here and 11k in the US. If the cost of labour here (and associated costs with running a business like rent, electricity, etc) is twice the price in the US, then to explain the difference, the cost price of the motor would have to be $0. The doubling only applies to costs once landed (not everything will be double). E.g. say if the margin is 20%, then that percentage of 11k is 2.2k. So double the costs and you add 2.2k and you get 13.2k. Fair enough, but what about 22k? Wheres the extra 8.8k going.
Even say it was 100% markup. Cost price for the motor would be 5.5k. Double all the costs once bought wholesale and then the total cost is 16.5k. So still 5.5k going somewhere.
As for overseas workers. The labour cost is onlya portion of the total cost so reducing it by 50% by paying overseas workers doesnt drop the price by half.
So lets say a 22k motor has a 'raw profit' of 40% (i.e. cost price is 13.2k). Lets assume the retailer is not making a profit and its all overheads/labour costs. Of those costs lets say half is labour costs (the other is rent, breakages, warranty, power, maintenance on building, advertising, etc, etc) [would be interesting to know what % usually is labour]. So 4.4k in labour costs. Say the retailer employs indians at half the rate. Labour rate goes to 2.2k.
So take 2.2k of the price. It can now be sold at 19.8k. However, its only a 10% saving. Not a 50% saving like the US price. So if we assumed the price the retailer was able to offer it for if he employed overseas workers would be the same price as the US one, then I would be quite happy to pay and extra 10 or 20% more if I was supporting local workers and local businesses. But to pay 100% more, well, thats quite different.
MattMiller
Posts: 4171
Date Joined: 15/06/09
Oh yeah Matty
looking forward to Rods response to that one
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
Not an attack on Rod in any
Not an attack on Rod in any ways just to be clear. Most retailers get shafted by the middlemen, so a lot cant choose. E.g. lots of retailers to compete on price but they can only go so far. However, if theres just the one importer, they can set whatever price they want with no competition, and all retailers get the same wholesale (give or take). Would be very interesting to know what percentages motors or boats go on though (doubt we'll ever get that though :p)
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Hlokk for someone who seems
Hlokk for someone who seems to know a lot I'm surprised you've never heard of economies of scale.. Take outboard motors the Australian market is maybe 10 % of the worlds supply. The states however a different story. Example. when i was Sales manager at Fremantle Yamaha we were number i in WA. One year we finished number 3 in the country and we would have sold at best just under 400 outboards. An average US dealer would do that a month..or two. Take that ratio across the hole region and you get a hell of a lot more motors being shipped in to the US. SO therefor huge freight saving. Substantially better ratio for storage to supply issue. Staff cost is a huge amount less and taxes. Well anyway You don't see the bigger picture.
A good comparison. Its the same as say a business operating in Karratha as opposed to Perth.
On average a outboard dealer in WA would make 6% gross profit.. SO its not the retailer. Also i have seen Yamaha's bottom lines before and they are not making the other 46% either.
But what about my question. IS it okay to support companies bring in cheaper labour from overseas to help reduce the overall retail prices?
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
When I can buy a single item
When I can buy a single item from a retailer and ship it across airmail much cheaper than I can get here (and cheaper than cost price sometimes) shows that scale is not the only issue. Theres clearly other things going on, so you cant just say its because we sell less in Australia. You cant get much worse scale of economy that an a single unit!
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Still missed the point. SO
Still missed the point. SO you only buy one unit. But how many other poeple would buy only one unit from that same dealer. Thousands. Thats why they can thanks to economy of scales sell for cheaper price...
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
I think you missed the point
I think you missed the point Rod. I understand economies of scale. I buy one unit, but lots of other people do, sure, from the point of view of that shop, not from me.
Say I want to sell some items and I'm located in Australia and I want to sell say 1000 units. Now, I have two options. One is to get it via a local distributor, and one is to get it from the US. So I can either get an abysmal economy of scale and order 1 unit at a time, retail from the US, individually airmailed over and do it 1000 times, or I can order 1000 from the supplier in Australia in one go. Now, obviously the economy of scale is significantly better on the second option. However, it is STILL CHEAPER to buy one single item airfreighted from a retailer from the US! I could reduce that cost even more if I bought 1000 units from the retailer and shipped them over in a container (which is what the Australian distributor would probably do), or even just bulk packaged airmail.
The US distributorship may sell 10's of thousands of the units and of course, due to economy of scale, that would be cheaper than being able to sell 1000 here, but thats not the point i'm getting at. That would be quite to be expected. However, to best take advantage of the same situation, it would be much more economical to buy from the US wholesaler and skip the US retailer than buy from the Australian wholesaler.
So, from the point of view of say an Australian retailer, it is a stupid economy of scale to buy a single unit retail from the US, as the Australian distributor could supply 1000. How can 1 item be so much cheaper than 1/1000. You would expect the wholesale price to be more for Australia if we buy 1/10th of the US, but it still does not explain the large price discrepancy when you can buy a single unit cheaper retail and airmailed than thousands of units wholesale here.
And lastly, again, i'm not having a go at retailers. I'm not sure why you wouldnt be outraged that you can buy items retail from the US BELOW COST PRICE??
harro
Posts: 1959
Date Joined: 07/02/08
doesnt work
there are fair work minimum wages mate, and we have to apply these, to all including overseas immigrants or working visas,
:::: Bass Hunter ::::
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
Hey Rob, so what is the
Hey Rob, so what is the hourly rate charged out for the marine mechanic $180/hr, how can you justify that?
Whats the price to Service a 115hp 4 st yami $600-700?
Parts + oil $150 max
Labour- 2.5hrs max which works out to be about $180 / hr
Looks like someone is having the cake and eating it to.
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Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Don't sell new any more but
Don't sell new any more but if the dealer does the service correctly from memory its about 3 to 4 hours work (as suggested by Yamaha in there Warranty Book)
Depends in who you use and what service they offer but the average labour is about $110 and hour now. Mostly due to a huge under supply in marine mechanics. Simply put you have to pay them huge money to get them to work for you. About 7 years ago a mechanic in his first year at were i worked ( sorry first year after qualify ) was on just under $60 000. so i guess today you'd even have to pay more. Plus supper, holiday pay, sick pay ect.
Give it another few years and then tell me $110 is not too high..They way the marine industry is going (with imports more dealers will shut and so less mechanics will get trained) would be paying double that easy. Not to mention you'll have to book in three months in advance..Same again check out how it works in Karratha?
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
It this simple.If you don't
It this simple.
If you don't support your local deli down the road then you will lose that simple convenience of being able to just drop down and pick up some milk. Yes he will be dealer than the bigger shops but that because he doesn't sell as much..So then you'll have to travel twice as far to get your milk at night. Maybe even you'll find you wont have a local supplier as all the bigger shops are now centralized and you'll have to travel to get that milk..
Same for the marine industry. Don't complain when you can't see the sounder or GPS you want to buy in the flesh before you buy it on line. That's how it works now. The customer goes into the local dealer, checks out the unit spends time with the local retailer than leaves and orders it on the net.
Buy over seas but don't ask the local guys for help, or waste there time up front, most of all don't complain when you cant get any help locally. That's my point. No issue with buying overseas but just beware of the consequences up front.
For record i don't support buying offshore. I don't support cheaper labour that is being imported at a alarming rate. I do support local shops and and even my local deli..
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
I agree with you Rob with
I agree with you Rob with regards to the shortage of "goog" marine mechanics as there are alot out there and I dare say we have all been stung at least one. When I target the dealers thats exactly what I am talking about they sting you for a service but don't actually provide what they are meant to in the first instance.
You seem to go on about the imported cheap labour, well let me tell you the savings any company makes on the import of cheap labour is not being passed on to the end consumer. The whole argument here is based on the costs savings not being passed on to the end consumer.
I believe savings on the current strength of the aussie dollar are not being passed on to us for a start. Yes America is a much larger market, but our dollar is comparitive and I just can not see how the dealers can justify the current pricing.
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Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Often cheap labour is used
Often cheap labour is used just to stay afloat..I see news reports every other day about companies under cutting each other by using imported labour. Especially in the tilling , painting and brick market. Basically the building industry really.
How was the rally the other day at parliament with people demanding jobs be done locally instead of overseas. I wonder how many of those protesting people buy on line??
Tony Halliday
Posts: 2500
Date Joined: 14/06/07
when every Tom, Dick & Harry
when every Tom, Dick & Harry wants to own a brand new car, a 4x2 luxury house with alfresco and spa etc... then you going to have a wage blow out in an ecconomy of less than 6% unemployment. SIMPLE.
In the USA a good mechanic working in say Texas or even Colorado would be on under $50k US a month, drive a 10 year old F150 truck and have a small old house.... AND thats why things are cheaper there than here,
Australians are greedy and want everything before they 25 yrs old... FACT...
No where in the world would you expect a doctor with 7 years medical school behind him, plus internship etc working for less than a dump truck driver on a mine ....GO FIGURE...
I know I will rub a lot of traddies, truckies and non uni-skilled people up the wrong way, but mates you far too over paid here in Australia compared to the rest of the world and that filters down to when union rates for a F@#$%ing no skills TA gets $60/hr on award rates!!!!
You by your greed push wage inflation up and so cause employers to pay more for staff that equals higher prices and so the spiral goes on and on....
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/mypayscale.aspx?pid=7c923368-1687-449e-acdb-ecab27f5fc45
average wages of a USA marine mechanic, : US$16.9, max $25 per hour! vs
average wage of an Aussie marine mechanic : AU$20, max $28 per hour. ( yet I don't know of a single one under more like $50 per hour)
so on average our marine mechanics are paid close to 30% more than a basic USA mechanic.
We can't afford to manufacture jacksh!t here anymore due to high wages and low productivity anymore. And thats why 90% of stuff for mines and gass projects now go to korean, tiawan, vietnam, thialand, china, etc...
http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Country=Australia/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States/Salary
some basic comparisons of wages.
In fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_countryI can ( and have done so) bought a horse float, top of the range here in WA, via the agent, made in the UK ( of all places) 30% cheaper than a localy made one.
The land of milk and honey is leading to fat lazy bulls & bees.... and when the winter of ecconomic times comes, it will be many that will crawl back and starve on their lush life styles.
Sorry folks, basics of ecconomics, and as Rod said a boss is forced to use expensive labour, there for he either pushes his prices up or moves to another place to trade. It's more than just supporting your local dealer and deli. It's about growing up and waiting for the good things in life like your grandaddy had to, NOT A NEW V8 BEFORE YOU 20 AND A HSV BY THE TIME YOU 25!!!!
http://www.news.com.au/money/laundry-staff-on-420k-a-year/story-e6frfmci-1226027858419
so does your average oil rig worker need to earn more than a prime minister ???
( MY ONE AND ONLY POST FOR THIS NOW, NO RESPONSE WILL BE GIVEN AGAIN...)
Tony Halliday: ~Meals on Reels ~
It takes a strong fish to swim against the current. Even a dead one can float with it
"It is always in season for old men to learn." Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
"In a mad world only the mad are sane." Akira Kurosawa (1910-1998)
Lastchance
Posts: 1273
Date Joined: 02/02/09
For fuck sake, Tony, why did
For fuck sake, Tony, why did you choose to come to Australia then, hey? Why not go to one of the other nations that you mention and get the cheap labour that you seem so interested in???
The link regarding the Laundry worker is the usual Liberal/Opposition scare campaign regarding wages - exactly the same thing happened at the start of Train 4 at Woodside when they quoted an Electrician will earn $350,000 a year in 2002 - they neglected to mention that was based on the hourly rate of the day, on a 13 day fortnight with no R&R - thats right 13 days a fortnight ALL year. FACT is that we earnt $1439 in the hand a week for 54 hrs on a 6 and 1 roster as a local employee, which equated to about $110, 00. You dont actually think that unskilled labour could earn that amount? As usual there might be a handful of people on this money somewhere and the next thing it is the entire workforce.
As far as outsourcing labour goes, Train 5 was the first ever component built LNG plant, with the above ground being built as the underground was being done - not as a cost saving exercise, but a time saving initiative as both could be done concurrently. The actual cost was higher than train 4 due to the amount of re work that had to be done because the labour in Batam couldnt supply the same standard that is required here.
People always talk about the 20 year old TA getting $150,000 a year in 'The Mines' when it is always neglected to mention that they work 60-84 hrs a week and are generally working in a fairly undesirable place. Hourly rates dont vary that much, just the hours worked, site allowances, production/productivity bonuses etc. It all adds up. Sure there are plenty of HSV's getting around etc, but also when my oldies were my age, a house was about twice the average wage - something that it certainly isnt now.
Cant believe someone living here (and complaining about the difficulties when trying to bring in more rellies) would complain about the place they emmigrated to. Unbelievable.
PerthGlory
Posts: 157
Date Joined: 07/03/10
Great Comment
"Cant believe someone living here (and complaining about the difficulties when trying to bring in more rellies) would complain about the place they emmigrated to. Unbelievable."
PG
Tony Halliday
Posts: 2500
Date Joined: 14/06/07
mate, in 2009 on the Sino
mate, in 2009 on the Sino Iron Ore project for the construction of the camps, we where subject to a Union Greenfields agreement.
go get yourself a copy and look at the labour rates we where forced to pay unskilled workers!
What happend, the contractor went to the wall and ended up in a liquidation court fight.
I'm not anti Aussie or Australia, I'm anti greed! Fair wages for a fairs days work is not an issue for me.
give Goodline a call and ask what they asking for TA's on contract to jobs at Sino, or EMS who now have been bought out what they quoted as TA rates and carpenteer rates and plumbers.
at 216 hrs a month paid time ( 18 days at 12 hrs paid shift per month) at a daily rate with awards and on a greenfields agreement ( union job) of $65 per hour = $14,040 + supa. Most contractors where in for 8 to 14 months and moved straight to the enxt contract.
Yes it's long hours, but still silly money paid for the productivity levels.
As for hours, well last project in the Pilbra I was working 13 days on ( at 12 hr days) and 3 days off!!! And as the second in charge of the Commissioning as Lead Engineer was on a low rate than some of the office staff people! WTF...Go Figure.
Don't shoot the messanger, I saw a lot of Aussies outside the goverment houses ralling for more work to be done localy, but how can you do things localy is the rates are just too high to make a project fly.
oh and I don't complain about Australia, I complain about killing the golden goose we all need to live off for a long time still...
let some one else take up this fight, I'm over it.
here go follow another forum where they bedating this for years now
:http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/682500 ( last post end of 2010, first post 2007...)
Tony Halliday: ~Meals on Reels ~
It takes a strong fish to swim against the current. Even a dead one can float with it
"It is always in season for old men to learn." Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
"In a mad world only the mad are sane." Akira Kurosawa (1910-1998)
Lastchance
Posts: 1273
Date Joined: 02/02/09
Fair enough Tony, but the
Fair enough Tony, but the project you mention was/is one of the worst run projects to ever be undertaked in the Pilbara. Building a groyne out to the island with no EPA approval, denying the presence of Asbestos, attempting to have an airstrip that can take international flights direct from China for labour purposes, laying off local employees before 457's and employing 0 apprenticeships whilst whining about the labour shortage.
Agreed though, its a shame our resource companies cant make any money.
http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/rio-tinto-makes-us-14-3-billion-net-profit
http://www.tios.co.za/woodside-annual-profit-rises-1.1029694
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/bhp-billiton-more-than-doubles-full-year-profit/story-fn65t1pq-1225910023134
Anyway, lets agree to not agree and get back to fishing.
dom77777
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 30/01/08
sounds like
sounds like you can get a marine mechanic flown to australia put him up for a week do your service and fly him back home cheaper than the services here ....fkn amazing ..... ps tony well put mate if only the greedy pricks here wouldnt be so greedy things would be a lot cheaper .i say let them reap what they sew ..let them pay the ferryman ...lol... ill buy of any where i can save a dollar .like most people on this site
dom77777
The_Wanderer
Posts: 735
Date Joined: 24/09/08
Hey Tony plenty of cheap
Hey Tony plenty of cheap labour!
http://travel.webjet.com.au/webjettsa/home.aspx?flight_search_action=http%3A%2F%2Ftravel.webjet.com.au%2Fwebjettsa%2Fhome.aspx&TripType=OneWay&CityFrom=PER&DateOut=2011%2F3%2F28&CityTo=Joh&DateBack=2011%2F4%2F5&TravelClass=ECONOMY&NumAdult=1&NumChild=0&NumInfant=0&EntryPoint=Flight&RequestFrom=Outside
iana
Posts: 652
Date Joined: 21/09/09
Working for an Importer/Retailer
One of my mistakes in life was to get a job in the importing/retailing industry. I found that in the shop, the owner held all pricing in his head, so when he went overseas buying, none of the shop assistants new the prices of items that were not labled. When it came to selling spare parts, we used to have an in house auction to make up the price. I.e I think its worth $2, another bid, its $5 no double, lets cut by a half etc, it was a huge joke and the customer was charged accordingly. Because I thought this was grossly unfair, I managed to get prices from our supplier. I found that parts we were buying for $2 a pair were resold for $24-$36 each!
When I went to fix items that broke down, just out of warranty naturaly, I had people crying that they couldn't afford the prices, parts brought for $90 and on sold for $400.
The list went on and on. The old adage " an item is worth what the customer is willing to pay for it" is very true. Where I worked, mark-ups wern't huge they were enormus.
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
What were you selling? I'm in
What were you selling? I'm in the wrong game..
scottnofish
Posts: 1621
Date Joined: 28/08/07
just bought a set of injector oring/seals for a 115 yammy
$170.00 from a yammy shop here for them , if i was willing to wait for them I could have got them could have got them from a yammy shop in the states for $40.00
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Out of curiosity how did you
Out of curiosity how did you know the injectors needed changing? I'm guessing that the dealer checked them first on the computer (for which i am sure they would have charged you to do)?
If so than this is my point. By continually buying over seas eventually local dealers will possibly pull the pin and it will be very difficult to get motors looked at, serviced locally. We will simply have to rellie 100% on the net..
Just trying to show my point Scott not having a personal dig at you..
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
Well, then they should be
Well, then they should be offering the injectors at $60 in the first place or something and people would be buying them from them. Thats still a 50% price hike. What do they expect with 400% markup (on US retail prices, not wholesale).
I'm more than happy to pay a bit extra locally. I know due to volume of scale and higher costs, that it will cost more here. But when they want 2 or more times the price, and its clear that that cant be explained purely by higher costs by the whole chain, then i'm not an idiot.
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
You understand that Coles and
You understand that Coles and Wollies can sell cheaper than a local family owned store? We are talking the same thing..You can make harder or easier than that. That is what i talk about when we explain the main differences between a Aussie dealer and a UA dealer..
SO why do people support the local store. Convenience? That's it for me..
Just don't winge when there is no local store left..Thats all..
hlokk
Posts: 4290
Date Joined: 04/04/08
But do coles and woolies sell
But do coles and woolies sell below the cost price of a family owned store consistently across most products? Its not the same thing as both of them are in the same country and are not necessarily subjected to gouging middlemen and exclusive importer contracts. I'm guessing as a retailer with agreements, you cant just import outboards from the US even though it was cheaper. The middlemen have you by the balls, and yet you're still defending them?
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
I'll quit as you seem to miss
I'll quit as you seem to miss the point and obviously have a far better understanding and intimate knowledge of the Marine Industry, it s working and pricing that i do
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
That is my whole point of
That is my whole point of argument, someone along the chain is killing the pig. All these items are produced from a source and the Yanks purchase from the same source as the Aussie's so why the difference in price???
Rob, I understand your point of supporting the local guy, however, why don't these local guys stand up for themselves and challange the pricing, as there is nothing stopping them from going overseas for parts.
I know my mechanic would have no issue in myself sourcing my own parts if there is a cost saving.
False economies eventually get sorted out through competition and the internet is the lastest tool.
null
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
For fear of starting
For fear of starting the round about again i'll try one more time.
The middle man adding the extra costs are.
Government.
Honestly the list could go on and on. But i really doubt anyone will see it my way.
As a used dealer i really should be jumping on the import band wagon. Boats are cheap and i get emails everyday from people who offer me deals even better that the average punter as i'm a business, but you know why i don't. Because i will be able to stand up tall in years to come and say yes the Marine industry is f-cked, but you know what, not because of me.
I just don't wont to have to say i told you so but the writing on the wall is already being etched IMHO.
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Just one more point to
Just one more point to explain. Most people don't see the difference between a Aussie dealer and a Yanky dealer. Well the average Aussie dealers yearly sale figure would equate to about i months sales of the Yanky dealer.
I was in the states on a tour with Yamaha to the Miami Boat Show back in 1997 and i will tell you it is simply mind blowing the size and volume.
Just the other day i had a jet ski come through here in a box. So not fitted together at all, in fact its against the selling requirements of the USA dealer but what the hell. Now that ski has no warranty. the dealer had to do absolutely nothing to that ski. The invoice price that the end user paid for in USA $ before freight and other costs was added was below Yamaha Motor Australia could bring the ski in for from Japan.
So the cost for Yamaha to make that ski, cost to import to Aussie and warehouse, employ staff and then sell with a margin obviously is more than this one dealer in the USA sold it for..
We have laws pertaining to amount of spare parts a company has to carry in Aus. I remember back in about 1996 i think it was, Yamaha Local office dumped over $100000.00 worth of spares because its cheaper than storing them..
I could go on and on but that's not my point. My point is just think about the local guy first. If his business is not that important to you than fine. SO be it, to me its all about local..
scottnofish
Posts: 1621
Date Joined: 28/08/07
actually i had a very expensive
mobile mechanic out to fix a problem to which we we charged $600 odd dollars labour for 2 hours that he was on the boat plus $400. for a couple off parts (couple of water seperator element thermostates and impellers ) only to have the same problem still when i took it out next so i jumped on the yammy site in the states and they told me tocheck the injectors which i was quoted $400 each for here but could get from the states for $120 each , in the end i watched on utube how to clean the injectors so gave that a try and found 2 werent working correctly so i flushed them and al was sweet but i noticed that 2 of the orings had been damaged by the mechanic who checked them before
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
At the yamaha dealership they
At the yamaha dealership they would have put your engine onto the computer and it would have told them immediately what the problem was. Sadly that's the problem with mobile mechanics they simply don't have access to computer software.
Scott you did well to get it going. The amount of engines i have seen with dropped cylinders due to faulty injectors is very high. Lucky you got it right the first time.
Sadly your circumstance didn't explain it like i wanted but i think you'll get my drift..
dodgy
Posts: 4577
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Etec fuel filter. $60 quoted
Etec fuel filter. $60 quoted here plus postage. Boats.net was $24 for 2 including postage.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
stilly
Posts: 341
Date Joined: 10/08/09
quite alot of whinging
about paying for peace of mind imo, marine mechanics charge what they do due to having to be perfect or very near perfect with every job, as even the small jobs done can cause loss of life out on the water, if its soo expensive sell your boat or do your own dodge up jobs jmo
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
Stilly, you are confusing my
Stilly, you are confusing my argument. I have no issue with paying the MARINE MECHANICS to carry out the work. However, there are just to few to go around so I believe there are a lot of dodgies out there (majority) and therefore, we do not get what we pay for.
For Example if your hydraulics go on a 115hp the dealerships would advise to replace with new at a cost of $2500, where as to overhaul your hydraulics it would costs $180 parts and $180 labour. Will the dealerships come out on the water and check your motor whilst under load when the problems occur? we are paying them enough.
The real issue here is Mechanics in general is a dying trade, in fact they are already calling them technicians. Gone are the days when the mechanic listens to your engine and will pin point a problem, or repairing hydraulics etc.
The new age has come where the technician plugs in the computer, which advises the error and the item is replaced. What happens when the computer malfunctions or the error keeps coming up what do you do next?
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stilly
Posts: 341
Date Joined: 10/08/09
and as for money in outboards?
there in net to nothing being made by dealers for fitting/selling new outboards ;)
stilly
Posts: 341
Date Joined: 10/08/09
water test? when i was
in the game when we couldn't diagnose a problem in the test tank we then river tested to make sure we hit the nail on the head, before we went any further and contacted the owner and gave them the option to fix/order anything needed , as for replacement of parts before fixing a currently broken part, its just more economical for the business to replace it, and usually always less time spent on the job with no hours wasted which you cannot charge the customer for, and computers will never replace a mechanic just phase out anyone wanting to work from home
pakulacockroach
Posts: 87
Date Joined: 06/12/07
Importers, Wholesalers
It must be the Importers that are taking all the profits. It certainly is not the Aussie retaliers. You know that it's not right when the cost price of an item here for a retailer is substantially more than an item that can be purchased & shipped from an O.S. store. It is definately not the retailer. They are not playing on an even field that's for sure.
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
I think this has gone all
I think this has gone all over the show.
My point is just this. I don't think its fair to go into a shop (local) spend time with the sales representative who costs money to employ and train, touch fell and play with a item that you are considering to buy. To then turn around go and buy it on line because its cheaper.
Buy on line if that's your desire but don't use the local retailer to first. If you also buy online don't also then complain if the local store gives you no after sales service.
Having said all that this is my belief and it is what i stand for. I do however believe that the local retailers/wholesalers do need to lift there game as far as service. I don't feel that service is really a factor for many store these days because they believe that every purchase is about price. I for one don't agree with that theory and would pay for service any day that i can.
My last point was that got taken of topic with wages comparisons is just this, don't buy on line yourselves, support who ever you feel is the cheapest by all means but then don't complain when local jobs go begging as companies will do the same. They will just buy from the cheapest source. My point i said before is I wonder just how many of the protesting workers at parliament house a few weeks ago demanding work for local people buy on the net themselves. If they do then they are hypocrites and they will soon find out they cant have the cake and eat it..
Tony Halliday
Posts: 2500
Date Joined: 14/06/07
http://www.news.com.au/nation
http://www.news.com.au/national/dysfunctional-labor-stands-for-nothing-is-out-of-touch-mark-latham/story-e6frfkvr-1226030299511
not my words but the man that nearly was your last leader....
"The number one political issue is the cost of living pressures. That's just code for greed,''
"People just want more and more and more.''
Tony Halliday: ~Meals on Reels ~
It takes a strong fish to swim against the current. Even a dead one can float with it
"It is always in season for old men to learn." Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
"In a mad world only the mad are sane." Akira Kurosawa (1910-1998)
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
Don't know where you going
Don't know where you going with this one Tony. The subject matter was with regards to Overseas vs domestic pricing, not cost of living.
null
Tony Halliday
Posts: 2500
Date Joined: 14/06/07
overseas pricing is their
overseas pricing is their cost of living, local pricing is our cost of living.
It's more than just boat parts, it includes buying Aussie goods in other countries cheaper than here. Simple things like goods made in Australia being sold in supermarkets in NZ cheaper than here!
I don't mind paying a good dollar for good work, but times when I pay some one more than I expect is an acceptable rate for work I have to have done, erks me to the bone.
but hey I have been told off on here, so I'll bite my lip and pay my bills...
but when it costs more for an eletrcian to come out than a doctor to see me.... WTF. and a Dentist quotes you close to $10,000 for your teeth to be repaired ( four caps, one extraction, two fillings!!!!)... Sh!t I can fly to Germany and get it done for less and get a holiday in the deal!!!!
"People just want more and more and more.''
....( Lathams Quote,,,,not mine..)
that " more" = wages and wages drives up rates and costs and makes our stuff more expensive than over seas stuff...
ps just got my Ford G6 serviced, major service... under $260 dollars... wish my boat was that cheap
do yourself a favour, go do a simple online business plan for a small shop in Australia, then do the same for USA, France, Canada, Japan, etc...
you can get basicly every cost on the net, labour, rent, electrcity, transport, telcoms, taxs, stock holdings, bank charges etc... and see how we stack up!!!
Tony Halliday: ~Meals on Reels ~
It takes a strong fish to swim against the current. Even a dead one can float with it
"It is always in season for old men to learn." Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
"In a mad world only the mad are sane." Akira Kurosawa (1910-1998)
mullows
Posts: 738
Date Joined: 25/12/08
Just bought a boat cover from
Just bought a boat cover from the USA for nearly a quarter of the price that I was quoted here, delivered. Also has a five year warranty. Funny thing, is yep I would have to send it back if it shits itself but I can cope with that knowing that even if I get a couple of years out of it, I can do that many times and still be in front considering the local warranty is less than half as long.
Now I know that there are a lot of factors as to why they are cheaper/we are more expensive, but at the end of the day I can't afford to pay $3k+, for the sake of supporting a rip off merchant who charges a fortune because it is for a boat and it is K town. At least that way I have a couple of grand to pay for other things that may indeed be local such as the service of my boat, tackle etc etc etc.
Cheers
Mullows
The Older I get the better I was :-)
mullows
Posts: 738
Date Joined: 25/12/08
nuh
m
The Older I get the better I was :-)
stilly
Posts: 341
Date Joined: 10/08/09
aaasnapper
the trade certificate doesn't call u a technician, it says specialised marine engineer ;)
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Just a quick follow up to the
Just a quick follow up to the economies of scale thing. I recently mentioned a dealer in the USA sending over Yamaha Wave runners in crates. Not assembled at all. A HUGE no no and you should loose your agency for it. Opens up all sorts of legal claims to negligence. Anyway i was talking with the Aussie Yamaha rep and it turns out they have been doing it for some time. Now Yamaha Australia are jumping up and down but it turns out this particular dealer sells more units per year than the entire AUSTRALIAN figures.
SO does Yamaha Oceania knock the USA dealer on the head or say to the Aussie suppliers. Sorry your out?
Now how can a local shop compete with that..
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
Its quite simple Rob, you
Its quite simple Rob, you import your product from the US and bypass Yamaha Australia. I am sure if the dealers started doing that then Yamaha Australia would take note.
null
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Good to see my point is still
Good to see my point is still being missed
Lamby
Posts: 3145
Date Joined: 04/08/09
hehehe how many times have
hehehe how many times have you whipped that dead horse now?
Rod P
Posts: 725
Date Joined: 20/05/08
Yeah i know and i feel bad
Yeah i know and i feel bad for preaching it but it needs to be out there.
Buying online is killing all industry's.
One of the big print media companies here in Perth that rely on boats and bike sales just sacked 19 staff. The big bike yard, Northcity up here in Joondalup is closing the doors, they can't compete with imports for accessories for which they rely on to keep afloat. I know of a few others that are all teetering on the edge so can't name them but the Net has created this monster and soon we'll all be forced to live with it..
Just sad to say i told you so.
To clarify for me it doesn't hurt. I sell second hand boats only. SO other than everyone's boats second hand now are worth a huge amount less than they would have been, i won't notice a big difference..That means if you had a $30000 boat its now only worth $25000..
madaxe
Posts: 2
Date Joined: 22/05/11
imported labour
We have about $8-10 Million worth of machines, and due to the transient nature of machinists and boilies in our area, some machines would go weeks without turning, then you'd get a machinist, he's turn up for a couple of weeks, then just not bother turning up anymore, you's find out he's gone down the road for another 20c an hour... we had to keep the macines going, and already paying $30-35 an hour depending on skill level etc. we couldn't afford to pay any more without haing to lift our hourly rate and make our products more expensive.
Our solution came when a rep for a recruiting company walked in the door. Armed with resume's of heaps of Chinese machinists and boilies. Now we employ 14 Chinese Machinists, 6 Chinese boilermakers (some are actually just welders) a couple of schinese sandblasters and painters. Not one has had a sickie in 4 years, not one has knocked dd early, they are super reliable, you almost have to force them to stop working in the afternoon. our productivity has increased buy 60%. and we pay them exactly the same pay scale (CNC operators are on $35/hour).
W can now manufacture our produce in less than half the time, it cost us a bit less to manufacture, and instead fo putting the price up (which we had to do before) we kept it the same and we are now cheaper than the competition by around 5-6%. and we are making more profit then ever.
so next time you wanna have a whinge about imported labour, first have a whinge about the lazy locals in my area at lease, which are leading to increased demand for imported labour.
on another note, my first trade was a motor mechanic, then went on to diesel fitting then fitting machining, then finished my degree in mechanical engineering. If i want my boat fixed, regardless of age, i do it myself. I currently have 3 outboards (2 late model yammy fourstrokes... both dropped valves) which i am rebuilding for other people. Got quoted $2600 locally for a new head with 8 weeks freight. got one online for $960 AUD arrived in 3 days...
currently filling a container in the US with Outboards, winches, engines etc. will be leaving in th next 3 weeks... was quoted locally $18500 fitted for a DF140, picked on up new in the US for $9200 US. will end up being about $9500 AUD Landed on my door (excluding importing tax).
Why buy local?
Rowley wrote: "cut your way in, weld your way out"
aaasnapper
Posts: 218
Date Joined: 15/01/10
Well said Madaxe.Thats what I
Well said Madaxe.
Thats what I have been saying all along. Why should we be proping up a false economy. If your business is not competitative you must look at it critically and make the hard decision so as to stay in business.
Looks like you have done you homework and it is paying off for you, your clients and employees.
null
madaxe
Posts: 2
Date Joined: 22/05/11
Sorry guys
Sorry guys, bit of a mouthful there, hope i didnt rustle any feathers. I Just love fising, and joined up to read fishing stories etc. didnt mean to get involved in an argument about importing outboard motors.
For the record, though, it is very difficult to import an outboard from the united states, as most dealers wont ship an engine over 40HP, and none that i have found will ship to Australia. I have been buying engine parts from the US for a few years now, i have one dealer that is willing to sell a few outboards not fitted, but they won't ship them anywhere, they've basically told me i'd have to pick them up. I might end up flying over there, hiring a truck and picking them up to put them in a container myself yet... It will still be half the price of Australia and i'll get a nice little holiday out of it. But this is a Maybe, as i had a major setback today after stiking a deal with a dealer, then being told i'd have to pick it up personally.
I will keep you all posted on the progress, as i am curerntly calling people trying to find someone wo would pick them up directly from the dealer and put them on a truck. If anyone has had any experience with this sort of thing can they let me know either here or via PM?
PS. One of the blokes that works in our structural section is going to the filipines on tuesday to interview 7 fitters because we can't get any. Have been advertising for 6 weeks and had 2 applications. one took the job and is going well, the other laughed at $35/hour plus penalties in town. unbelievable..
anyone know any fitters with conveyor experience?
Rowley wrote: "cut your way in, weld your way out"