Anyone know much about business law?
As some of you may remember, in the middle of last year i spent about 6 months renovating my boat which involved cutting out the deck, removing foam and starting from the fiberglass hull. All of the timber came from a company which we will call ISUPPLYyouwithtimber near the end of High Road and Leach Highway.
After 6 or so months after relaunch, i was doing something in the bow hatch and noticed a bit of flex in the timber and upon close inspection, noticed a bit of delamination. Odd. Upon even closer inspection, i noticed a lot more delamination was starting. This, on Marine plywood that had a liberal dip in Polyester resin before installation.
Now we are at 12 months after install and I have had to replace the deck hatch which has completely disintergrated (remembering it is Marine Plywood) and are pricing up replacement sheets to do the whole f*cking job again...Well not the whole job, just cut the deck off and put a new one in as the small bits i did in the structure were done with Marine Ply that cost twice as much from Bunnings. I guess I got what I paid for.
The purpose of this story is that I wrote a nasty letter of demand to the business for a refund of the costs of the product along with the cost of fiberglass and resin. When i called them to get an email address, i was informed that the business was sold in November this year.
Does anyone know where i stand? The timber that i got supplied with is not marine plywood (the offcuts i stored behind the shed have warped and have peeled beyond use) and the person i spoke to to do the transactions in 2018 is now the business owner.
The cost is not huge though i am more than a tad shitty at the prospect of a weeks worth of work + timber + glass + resin + paint + glue + carpet...
Saulty2
Posts: 644
Date Joined: 28/05/10
business has been sold
court action against owner, or previous company - name - director /s ? ,if you can proove sold as marine ply then maybe ,guarantee is with manufacturar of the product ,you would also need to proove that it was installed as per specification , assuming you can locate the previous owner then issue court proceedings , then mediation , prob. 9 months into it ! know ur peeved but will be more so if at the end nothing comes of it , & if lawyers get involved then min. 10k. dont shoot the messenger ! best of luck
sunshine
Posts: 2554
Date Joined: 03/03/09
Yup Saulty2 spot on
The new owners of the business have no liability even if the said new owner was, at the time, the employee who sold it to you. If you can find (historical business search) the owners at the time of purchase then it might be worth issuing a local court summons .....cheap as and you don't need legal representation but the local court is very hit and miss, a bit like judge Judy but for the small cost and a little bit of your time could be worth a fly. If it gets to the point where legal representation necessary run a mile.....super expensive !
Swompa
Posts: 3783
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Cheers Saulty and
Cheers Saulty and Sunshine.
Sounds like it will be one to cop on the chin (or in the pocket) and just get working on it again.
Throw that one in the 'learnings' part of the brain.
still trying
Posts: 1020
Date Joined: 27/06/17
I think I know The company
I think I know The company you are talking about and was about to buy a small amount of the ply from there I will stay away now.
rather be fishing
Alan James
Posts: 2206
Date Joined: 30/06/09
...
There are a number of questions that come to mind after reading your initial post. Late in your post you say the timber you were supplied was not marine plywood. Was it sold to you as marine plywood? Do you by chance still have the receipt? If the seller represented to you that the product was marine plywood, and it was not, then the seller is guilty of misrepresentation. The onus would be on you to demonstrate that the seller misrepresented itself and sold you a product that was not fit for purpose.
With respect to any claim upon the seller, the seller's limit of liability would be full replacement of the product only. Other costs such as labour, glass, resin, paint etc are known as consequential damages or loss and would not be claimable.
As Saulty2 has pointed out above the seller in this instance is nothing more than a middle man or post box between you and the manufacturer. If the product you were sold was marine ply for the seller not to take this up with the manufacturer is poor customer relations, despite the fact that he is the new business owner.
Notwithstanding the above the new business owner has no legal obligation to replace the product. Nasty letters of demand (your words) can often result in an equally abrupt response. Perhaps a more personable face to face approach is more appropriate now.
I have posted the below quote before on this site. It seems fitting to post it again as a reminder to all.
The Lowest Quote
“It’s unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest quote, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.”
John Ruskin (1819 – 1900).
Swompa
Posts: 3783
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Hello, I do have two
Hello,
I do have two receipts for three sheets that state Marine Plywood. One time, they loaded me up and the second time I loaded the car myself.
I went another one or possibly two times and paid cash but don't have the receipts.
When they asked me what I was going to do with it, I remember distinctly the lady pausing and saying I had to seal the edges. I didn't think much of it at the time as I was going to do it anyhow.
Alan James
Posts: 2206
Date Joined: 30/06/09
...
As I have said the new business owner is under no obligation to replace the product. Your best option is to persuade him to give you some consideration based on future customer relations. Take your receipts, pics and any other evidence you have of the delaminated product to him in person and request that he takes this up with the manufacturer. If he is unreceptive you could approach the manufacturer directly.
z00m
Posts: 1086
Date Joined: 10/05/14
Its a bugger
Unfortunately the poor man always pays twice. I have been guilty of the same.
Even if the product says marine ply but is a third of the price then you gotta have your wits about you. Only stamped/certified marine ply can really make that claim.
I went to one of the 'wholesalers' that seem to pop up now and then to look at their grades of 'marine ply' and when you compare their cheapo 15mm ply to their stamped BS1088 15mm marine ply, the stamped one weighs about 3 times as much and costs 3 times as much. It has no paper thin veneer on the outside etc. I asked the difference and how they can be sold that way and basically the one with the pretty veneer is suitable in marine environments if used indoors for furniture and cabinets etc. The heavy duty stuff is for structural items and areas that may get some moisture.
In the end you also have to remember, marine ply doesn't mean waterproof.
Silver Fox
Posts: 1097
Date Joined: 19/06/14
All right
Not meaning to come off as being rude here. Any time you put any form of wood into a boat it should be FULLY encapsulated in resin and fibreglass ( multiple coats ) . If you're going to go to all that time and effort on a project and you want the job to last you could have made your construction methods a little different. I've got jobs that have been exposed to the ocean for the last 20 odd years and they still look as good as they did when they were completed . If you need any help in lamination lay up let me know and I'll be glad to help you out.
My wife understands why I clean my rods n reels in the shower....
Swompa
Posts: 3783
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Arvo,The timber was coated
Arvo,
The timber was coated top and bottom along with the edges with poly resin and allowed to try before install. The problems stem from where i have installed a hatch and the two bits of ply have rub together or where the backing plate on the underside of the hatch (to stop the lid falling through) has flexed and seemingly allowed a bit of moisture in. The issue has grown from there.
I have been playing with fiberglass boats since i was about 13 and my father and I did the rebuild on the two boats we have now around 18-19 years ago so we are not completely green. The origional plywood (on the bow and the centre console) is fine, the cardboard shit i got last year is falling apart.
Please dont get me wrong, i appreciate your comment and your offer though i am confident in my processes, just not the product i was working with.
squidvicious1
Posts: 821
Date Joined: 22/07/10
No plywood is waterproof by
No plywood is waterproof by itself, marine grade ply is the type of wood veneers used V construction ply.
marine grade veneer is clear of voids and putty and usually more layers ‘A’ grade but still uses ‘A’ bond phonolic glue.
Construction ply has less and thicker veneers with voids exposed putty and 1 side unsanded.CD grade
Unfortunately hardly any ply in made in oz anymore, except a few plants in northern NSW. Most is imported crap.
form ply is 99% waterproof until you cut the outer veneer,used in form work only but not to used in marine cases.
Shark1
Posts: 1084
Date Joined: 21/05/12
be very carefull on marine
be very carefull on marine ply some mobs will sell u
BS 1088 - british standard 1088
tell u its a hardwood with the following eg formaldehyde or waterproof phenolic glue to all ends ... and this and that
then u find out BS 1088 is a not current standard ( non enforceable)- they stamp it BS1088 and sell it as marine ply
but the standard is not a standard anymore so they sell u soem unoknown product
a quick search on gumtree will show u
sorry but the lawyers fees gonna propably be worth more than the work - the time the effort - the fkn stress of a lawsuit
the time u spend in jail for homicide once the court throws the case out -though u were right - but his lawyer found a loophole - eg my client bought BS 1088 ply froma supplier ion gumtree...
buy ply froma reputable dealer or better use one of the syntetics alternatives honeycomb carbon etc
Shark1
Posts: 1084
Date Joined: 21/05/12
btw saltwater does not stuff
btw
saltwater does not stuff up wood - fresh water does
submerge wood in saltwater i will not get rot
try it in fresh - days later u see the black rot starting
a bit of useless meditaranean knowledge - started a deck wash with freah water as a new deckie and got absolutely hammered by the older deckies
why the old holy stone on the british/ frech etc tallships was a bit of stone and sea water - never fresh
Billcollector
Posts: 2006
Date Joined: 16/05/09
It's not the timber that
It's not the timber that shits itself it is the glue used in the process that will break down. Also wouldn't call the marine ply that bunning sell marine ply either. you pay a lot more for proper quality marine ply.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Yeah that shit is called
Yeah that shit is called ecoply, and needs to be drowned in sealer to be effective.
Love the West!
Shark1
Posts: 1084
Date Joined: 21/05/12
btw larniers opens something
btw larniers opens something stupid like 0500
Shark1
Posts: 1084
Date Joined: 21/05/12
bout $16 /dozen
bout $16 /dozen i think
sealanes was $24/12 yesterday
still trying
Posts: 1020
Date Joined: 27/06/17
The lady on the side street
The lady on the side street off carrington St sells them live as well she is always open in the day I think up near the golf course on the freo side kind of opposite the cemetery.
rather be fishing
still trying
Posts: 1020
Date Joined: 27/06/17
Oops
Oops
rather be fishing
Marineboy
Posts: 839
Date Joined: 14/03/14
Legal advice
if you decide you you want to pursue legal avenues do yourself a favour and book an appointment with legal aid, although they are not great they will give you some basic advice on where you stand and it only costs about $40, if you decide to proceed with legal action it only costs about $150 to file a complaint with the courts. Cases with a value of less than $10,000 neither party is allowed to be represented by a lawyer or professional of any form so you don’t need to worry about a blowout financially.
Ive been through this process so if you want to have a chat call me on 0411147070
cheers
mark
My spots are so secret even the fish don't know about them !
Mulie
Posts: 546
Date Joined: 20/02/11
I heard of a bloke who built
I heard of a bloke who built one sponson of a sailing cat (a bloody big one) that totally delaminated before he even started the next. He used that eucalypt marine ply on gumtree.
You should do a 5 min boil test before buying. Type A glue will not delaminate.
Hurfords sell decent ply at a good price.
And don't thin the resin with acetone as when the acetone dries, it leaves little passage ways for the water to travel through.
Mulie
Swompa
Posts: 3783
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Devistating! Cheers for the
Devistating!
Cheers for the name of the reputable source
Swompa
Posts: 3783
Date Joined: 14/10/12
photo added...
photo added...
Billcollector
Posts: 2006
Date Joined: 16/05/09
Definately not marine
Definately not marine ply....not enough layers and the ones that are there are too thick for marine ply.
Swompa
Posts: 3783
Date Joined: 14/10/12
It's 12mm on an angle. Some
It's 12mm on an angle. Some of the layers have fallen out...