Boat Ramp Behaviour

Hello all, Just wanted to bring this up again after a few interesting encounters at boat ramps in the river over the last few weeks.

1. If you are on a single Jet-Ski and have taken 48 of your friends out, please dont have them park in the retrieve/launch bays while they collect their mountain of equipment from your jetski.  There are usually rig up/down bays metres away where this is suitable behaviour.

2. If the above is you, and you notice boats queuing up waiting for the ramp.  Tell your mates to move in a smart fashion.  After being told, one bloke walked back and forth from the jetski to his car four times taking another 5 minutes to move while there were four boats waiting.

3.  One way means one way.  Dont drive your vehicle without a trailer the wrong way out of a one way boat ramp carpark holding up cars with boat trailers and receiving and ignoring comments from everyone just because and I quote 'I can make it'.

4. Queue proceedure.  If you have brought your boat in to shore and dropped someone off to get your trailer, the trailer enters the queue.  Just because your boat is on the beach next to the ramp does not mean it is your turn.  I had a dickhead in a ford territory park between me and another vehicle and trailer who had just arrived in the launch/retrieve lanes as I was about to reverse down to launch the boat.  All I could do is look at this dickhead in disbelief as the whole area is packed out with kids and families. There are three Launch/Retrieve lanes at this ramp, the two left hand occupied, right unoccupied and this dick literally parked between the two of us in the left hand lanes.  After launching I watched them back down the middle of a two lane ramp and hold the ramp up for the next 5 minutes unloading people and shit from the boat.

5. Rig up/Down areas are where you load/unload your boat, undo trailer straps, put in bungs etc.  Dont muck around on the ramp and hold everyone else up because you are disorganised.

6. If you are a car without trailer, and have no reason to enter the launch/retrieve lane JUST STAY OUT OF THE AREA.

I think that will do for now.

 

 

 


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Hah, you assume those idiots

Mon, 2012-01-02 08:15

Hah, you assume those idiots can read :P

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johno's picture

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 Awesome post :) well

Mon, 2012-01-02 08:18

 Awesome post :) well written 

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sarcasm0's picture

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touché

Mon, 2012-01-02 08:19

:D

chris raff's picture

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Jetskiers at challenge beach

Mon, 2012-01-02 08:26

been there a few times with the tinnie and phaark me they set up directly either side of the single ramp even though theres a km of beach ...which means you have pull the tinny around the anchored jetskis ...knobheads...I pretty sure theres a sign also saying no jetskis

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Silk200611's picture

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Well Said.

Mon, 2012-01-02 08:29

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glastronomic's picture

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You want to be amased about

Mon, 2012-01-02 08:44

You want to be amased about the stupidity and arrogance of sadly some, most people will do the right thing, then go to Mindarie, plant your behind on a nice comfy seat at the Indian Ale house and watch the shenenigans on a buzy boating day while having a refreshing ale!!

Jetski's are certainly getting a very bad name by some tools who own them.

One so called tied his ski up,NOT, got his car and in the mean time his rope became undone without anybody touching it.

The idiot came back and started to abuse all who were in the vicinity while taking a bath trying to get it back!

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chookc's picture

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Date Joined: 07/01/10

What shits me..

Mon, 2012-01-02 09:02

I hate those that see my boat & meter hard top ali and think that its their right to jump in front because they think they will be held up.  A big boat does not mean I will take forever at the ramp.....

 

I can launch and retrieve my boat quicker than most can launch their 3 meter tinnie....

 

Also people get with the program..   At the ramp I launch from ther jettys are 90 degrees to the ramp and there for you need to use the prevailing wind to float your boat around an on the trailer...  Take this into consideration when picking a lane to launch from especially when their a ten boats circling the river waiting to retrieve

 

 

just dhu it's picture

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Date Joined: 14/05/09

well said

Mon, 2012-01-02 09:08

well said sacarsm , maybe it would be worth printing the list out and hanging it at all boat ramps for their info

Lamby's picture

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Date Joined: 04/08/09

If you split these people

Mon, 2012-01-02 09:20

If you split these people then probably half have NFI & the others just don't give two sheets, would love to see a code of conduct at ramps. Much like 'tribal law' plaque that the Margies crew set up for the waves, no excuses

Edit: ^ dude above beat me to it

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Date Joined: 08/05/09

I Agree

Mon, 2012-01-02 09:35

I agree with everything said so far , it should be on a sign at every ramp in Australia . I do have an etiquette  question though .

If you happen to come home early on a busy day and there is still a fair amount of boats being launched (bloody jet skis and bow riders) , what is the proper thing to do .

Do you park your boat on the end of the jetty (so the launching boats can still depart)and go and get your car and join the cue ? 

Or do you circle waiting for the jetty to be clear of launching boats ?

Whilst were talking about boat ramps , do any of you guys use the new port kennedy ramp . I went for a quick look the other day and decided I will probably never use that ramp. Complete and utter chaos, there is cars (beach goers) parked in the de-rigging area thinking that they got the best park at the beach . There is way to many jetskis pushing infront of other people "cus I'll just be a minute mate", kids fishing and playing on the ramp and more kids swimming around the jetty . Maddness .

 

 

roberta's picture

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Feel for you

Mon, 2012-01-02 10:30

all that have to use public ramps. 

Unfortunaely even though we are members of the CPBA we still have dickheads within our club that don't adhere to the club rules. 

Coming in walk your boat right up to the beginning of the ramp, so if somebody is launching they know not to use that ramp or if somebody is coming in from the ocean, can go behind the boat waiting to retrieve. 

When launching walk your boat to the end of the jetty, as if people are coming in they can go in front of you to retrieve their boat or if launching they can launch as they know your at the end are going out.  NO some people just can't read or can't be bothered reading the club rules book, which is for smooth L/R.

Good luck fellas, we still have room if you wish to join the CPBA

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we got pretty fed up with

Mon, 2012-01-16 08:42

we got pretty fed up with some people at the public boat ramp at woodmans point. lots of friendly people but there were some strange people with no idea cutting you off, forgetting plugs, retrieving in the launch lanes.

In the end we joined the CPBA and are really happy with it.

carnarvonite's picture

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Open

Mon, 2012-01-02 10:45

The new boat ramp in Carnarvon is now open, still has a toilet block and cleaning station to be done  but jetty mods are finished. Will let you know once I've tried it out if more on mods need to be done.

grayzeee's picture

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A large woman had a go at my

Mon, 2012-01-02 10:52

A large woman had a go at my mate for jumping the queue on retrieval at 2 rocks ramp.

I had dropped him at the jetty , and he'd gone to get my car.  (There were a number of boats waiting to retrieve as I got into harbour.)

However , He didn't jump any queue when getting the trailer to the ramp and  we were using the far ramp away from the jetty anyway , we got out pretty quickly in front of most.

She's taken umbridge and had a go , telling him he was being rude and pushing in.

On ramps with jetty's , I think it's first at the jetty , 1st out ,    but with no jetty (nobody seems to want to use it)  , it's first trailer to the ramp.

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stevebw23's picture

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Date Joined: 12/11/11

i had never owned a boat

Mon, 2012-01-02 11:20

i had never owned a boat untill a few months ago and it amazes me how long it takes some people to unload/load their boats. before i took my boat out for the 1st time i spent a lot of time searching boat forums, google etc for the best ways to load/unload your boat quickly and safely just so i wouldn't hold anyone else up. i also made sure it wasn't busy at the ramp (during the week) while i was still learning the process.

people need top be more prepared before they get to the ramp. the skipper should have a plan in place before they leave their driveways and stick to it. sort out your ropes, bungs, eskys or whatever else you can before you leave home NOT on the warf. i always see people loading bags,eskies,rods or whatever into their boats whilst taking up precious ramp space. people on the warf should have been told what their role is and know what they're supposed to do (hold a rope). people with sloooowww electric trailer winches for their small tinny pisses me right off. my boats over 2 tonne and i dont use an electric winch. i've only been out 7 times and i can comfortably load my boat quicker (even by myself) than i've seen others do theirs.

i can see why people get frustrated and they've got good reason to be. there's no reason for a lot of the shit that slows boat ramps down. i havent had any bad encounters with jetskis yet, if i do i'll back straight over them :)

 

Dale's picture

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Ah, Boat Ramp Ettiquate, I've

Mon, 2012-01-02 12:26

Ah, Boat Ramp Ettiquate, I've seen some amazing things myself at boat ramps. some people never sieze to astound me.

 

Cheers

Dale

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sea-kem's picture

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So glad that I hardly use a

Mon, 2012-01-02 12:45

So glad that I hardly use a ramp (Just beach launch) But when I do it's usually Coode St. And same thing Sarcasmo "DICKHEADS" in cars with no trailers having a picnic in the park parking in the boat trailer bays. Shits me to tears.

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wangler's picture

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A traffic light

Mon, 2012-01-02 15:06

 may help at Hillary's where the STOP sign is at the boat ramp. How many times have ppl started to pull their boat out when someone (cars without trailers) drives staight through the STOP sign/line and you have to break suddenly with the load on the back

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Josh's picture

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Launch/retrieve

Mon, 2012-01-02 15:17

 Whats the accepted rule on the ramp if the ramps are not marked?

I have launched early at matilda bay chasing the tailor for the last couple weekends, and it seems as though the (facing the land) right lane is put in and left is take out? And we usually drop off one person at the beach to go get the trailer and then line up the boat out behind the retrieval (left) ramp, and idle round for a bit in a sort of que? then wait for the ramp to free up, and get in and out asap. Is this the correct procedure?

Although today there was this guy in a massive big sports cruiser who did a mega push in, there were 2 boats lined up on the jetty, and my mate just off the ramp on idle, with their cars on the way, when he came down with his car, then proceeded to back in, all the time with a couple of 5+m boats on the jetty, with their cars in disbelief, then this guy had to get his boat round the other two for a crazy entry angle then had to back out and try again, on his way up bumping into one of the bigger moored boats, and then driving onto his trailer, making a huge wash onto the two boats waiting to take out. 

Other than pushing in, is it allowed to drive onto your trailer? I though it was banned as it washes out the sand at the bottom of the ramp, then makes a big hole where the concrete ends and the sand starts which swallows up trailer wheels at low tide?

But on the bright side we got a couple of tailor, nothing like a month back, and a couple of blue swimmers :)

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Shits me when I'm retrieving

Mon, 2012-01-02 16:42

Shits me when I'm retrieving but have to wait idling away from the jetty on a busy day and have people drop their mates off on the jetty or nearby so that they can get their trailer in first. Jetski's are the main culprit(most don't even have a rope!) especially at Hillarys where they have the little jetty off to the side but plenty of boats do it there also. Throws the whole order who is tied up to the jetty out. They should have to wait out in the water behind me like nice little kids until it's their turn to tie up to a jetty.

 

Gav475's picture

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Maybe they should incorporate

Mon, 2012-01-02 18:56

Maybe they should incorporate these issues into the skippers ticket program as it is not covered at present. Its a bit like the old ad "dont tell me about boats fella" but to the average punta its CDF. You wil never eliminate stupidity but perhaps a bit more education may help. 

uncle's picture

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I Have a mental lists of

Mon, 2012-01-02 19:02

boats that I hope I find in trouble one day, Karmas great!

fatboyholla's picture

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i think its a good idea

Mon, 2012-01-02 19:27

i think its a good idea getting dropped of so you can go get the car, but when i do it i position my car of to the side and watch till its my turn in the cue. nothing worse then parking way up the back of two rocks marina and having to run up the hill to fetch the car wasting everyones time.

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worst fisherman ever

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Can I add one to sarcasms list

Mon, 2012-01-02 21:16

Learn how far to back your trailer into the water - I do not know how many times I have watched rollered trailers put in too deep and the retreiver need several attempts to get the boat on and straight simply because the trailer was backed in too far and the boat keeps floating off.  5 attempts for one guy at CPBA the other day with a Trophy ............and he kept abusing his decky when a metre less in the water might have made it heavier to winch out but it would have self centred on the guide rollers rather than floating over them 

 

 

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that would've been us...

Mon, 2012-01-16 09:05

that would've been us... sorry

But as soon as we got in the car i told the driver to back in less so the rollers actually do something and allign the boat.

went out yesterday and he backed in less and got it first shot.

big john's picture

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Lol

Mon, 2012-01-16 20:54

 Lol

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but he said learn how far to

Tue, 2012-01-17 07:47

but he said learn how far to back the trailer in. It was our second shot. we were still learning.

haha i dont care anyway

JohnF's picture

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My rant....if you cant

Mon, 2012-01-02 22:00

My rant....if you cant reverse a trailer....sell your boat dickhead..........phark,how hard can it be....I even had to walk beside one guy and give hime left hand down, right hand down instructions after he jack knifed a few times.........

 

Maybe I will take up the offer of a cold beer and some cheap laughs  at the Mindarie pub........

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Dan's picture

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my favourite day of the month

Tue, 2012-01-03 10:19

is handing over my money to fremantle boat park; - book my drop slot and then rock up, secure park, and stroll down to my boat, moored up to the jetty, jump onboard and GONE !!

very good for the blood pressure and sanity. I reckon I use the boat heaps more too; as I'm not daunted by the idea of a boat ramp nightmare !. Not cheap; but whenever I drive past a boat ramp in the middle of a chaotic summer day; it feels like money well spent !! :)

smash's picture

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how much?

Tue, 2012-01-03 15:33

what does it cost you there?

snappermiles's picture

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we had a bbq next to palm beach ramp yesterday

Tue, 2012-01-03 10:35

and just sat there laughing at the complete knobs trying to put there boats on and off! one bloke had a 4 metre ali and it took him 35 mins to get it on the trailer! would help if at least the rollers were out of the water your boat isnt meant to float on your trailer! times like these make it worth the money to be a mangles bay member!!

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Title needs to be changed to

Tue, 2012-01-03 11:19

Title needs to be changed to Boat Ramp Ettiquitte

Bodie's picture

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for those who use the far

Wed, 2012-01-04 10:04

for those who use the far side of the ramp at two rocks, im sure the whole ramp is marked 'NO DRIVE ON'.

 

Not impressed when someone decides to use the far side and drives on or off...

Another thing to keep in mind, sometimes it can be nice to offer to help someone get their boat on the trailer. (Hamelin bay is one of those ramps and im sure the old tantas is another)

CCC's picture

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interesting thread, When I

Thu, 2012-01-05 18:13

interesting thread, When I came down to Perth I fished from Two Rocks, having never fished from there before. When I got back to the ramp there was a lot of boats waiting to pull out. After watching and waiting while 3 boats used the left lane and nobody used  the right lane(no jetty side) I drop a mate on the jetty. He reversed the trailer down the left lane and I drove the boat up to the trailer. I did not drive it on he winched it up.

After that lots of boats decided to do the same. I did check with the boats around me if they wanted to use the right lane but no one wanted to.

What do you think about what I did, no one seemed to care actually they must have thought it was a good idea as they followed suit??

CCC

Willlo's picture

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Hey Bodie i am from Bunno and

Fri, 2012-01-06 09:06

Hey Bodie i am from Bunno and fish mainly during the week so if there are more than 10 boats at the ramp we call that a busy day.Was curious about your comment on drive on drive off,i think its the quickest way to get clear of the ramp. What would the reason be for a sign that says you cant do it on that ramp? Down at my local ramp we have one light and 2 bins (no signs at all). Agree with your comment about helping crew out have done it a few times and it speeds the proccess up heaps.After all the quicker its done the happier everyone will be.

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Paul G's picture

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I will not sit waiting in the

Sun, 2012-01-15 12:33

I will not sit waiting in the marina for every nob to fuck around at the jetty .I drive on and am out in 30 seconds.and will keep doing it I think there more concerned about the big cats that sit with motors in gear at 2000rph for minutes at a time this will for sure loosen the bottom.I give it enough speed to put her nearly all the way up and Jesse will winch the rest. Same with launching the boat rolls straight off no need to use motor. two rocks is aprick off a ramp at the best of times let alone on the buisy days.

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Nickk's picture

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Amen

Wed, 2012-01-04 10:56

Amen

davidbland50's picture

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Date Joined: 24/07/11

Which side?

Thu, 2012-01-05 12:06

It was mentioned before, but there was no answer. Is there a rule to which side you retrieve and which side you launch a boat if there are no signs? I was just down at the Maylands boat ramp today. Rather than waiting their turn, I watched in amazement as two boaties used up the whole ramp to put their boats in while there were several boats including my own, waiting to retrieve. Selfish a##holes, that's all I can say.

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sarcasm0's picture

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No signs fair game

Thu, 2012-01-05 21:43

Until they make it across the board that left is launch right retrieve or whatever if there are no signs, I believe it should be first trailer first served.  This means people can drop off on the beach, jetty - whatever but launch or retrieve based on order of trailer.

Either way, do as suggested, launch and move boat to end of finger jetty or beach, park car/trailer or on retrieve bring boat as far up or close as possible with respect to the queue, but in the ramp area it should be based on order of trailers and no rigging/loading/bunging in the ramp area.  Save that for the RIGGING area.
 

CCC, no problems that is what I would have done. 

 

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i agree CCC

Thu, 2012-01-05 18:28

i agree CCC

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grayzeee's picture

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exactly what I do CCCWhy

Fri, 2012-01-06 06:43

exactly what I do CCC

Why would you wait in a queue when there is a perfectly good ramp being unused. If nobodys going to use it , I am.

Not only that ,  if there is nobody launching on any of the bigger metro ramps in the arvo because the wind has come up or whatever , i'll retrieve on the launch ramps.  Just a bit of common sense needed.

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Willlo's picture

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Sounds like you guys in the

Fri, 2012-01-06 09:08

Sounds like you guys in the metro area have to deal with a heap of lemmings lol.

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johno's picture

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 Good thread to read guys,

Fri, 2012-01-06 09:37

 Good thread to read guys, agree at can be learn't and it should be made part of the questions in boating licences ..cheers

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carnarvonite's picture

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Date Joined: 24/07/07

Licence

Fri, 2012-01-06 15:53

We, Carnarvon sea rescue , ran an RST course and part of the practical that the instructor insisted on was the launch and retrieval of the vessel. Not having needed to do an RST, I think all instructor should include it if they don't already.

always late's picture

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Date Joined: 17/01/11

that's right carnarvonite,

Sat, 2012-01-14 13:32

My brother just did his RST using my boat in busso and it wasn't included.

Carnarvonite.. won't it take longer to get out from the new ramp, I used to live up there and think I will still use the old one.. or are they going to close it to rec fishing? I guess I will find out later in the year.

Also I drive my boat on every time ( skidded trailer, no rollers), I have only winched it on a couple of times when up at the blow holes etc, ... if you build your trailer for your boat you shouldn't be at the ramp for more than a few minutes. If your taking more than a few minutes maybe you need to adjust/reposition your rollers, and as another person has already said learn where your trailer needs to be.

Another cracker I saw the other day at quindalup was a dude sitting on the ramp holding up boats while he drained his boat!!.. it was soon mentioned to him to drive off, also another couple of boats waiting for the skipper to come back holding onto the boat at the base of the ramp..mentioned to them to walk the boat down the beach a little..nicely.

carnarvonite's picture

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Date Joined: 24/07/07

50/50

Sat, 2012-01-14 19:59

It takes about the same  time from either ramp and most of the regular locals are still using the old ramp while visitors are going to the new one.

sandbar's picture

Posts: 180

Date Joined: 25/10/09

I got told off today for for

Sun, 2012-01-15 21:49

I got told off today for for berthing in the launch/retrieval lane at woodmans. After the guy had a bitch and cry I told him to read the signs and to derig his boat in the derigging area, NOT in the launch/retrieval lanes.

 If these people can't read how the fark did they get an RST!

This is out of control,

 

 

sarcasm0's picture

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Date Joined: 25/06/09

Yep, Woodies was in fine form on friday

Mon, 2012-01-16 06:53

Arrive at ramp, boat rigged up and ready, drive into the first ramp.  First two lanes in use, drive through to the third lane, my deckie launches and takes the boat to the end of the ramp while I park car.  By the time I walk back, he has the motor running and warmed up ready to slip lines.  I notice that both the original ramps still in use.  First one, bloke appeared to be struggling to get the motor started.  Second Ramp a bloke and a kid sitting in a decent glass boat tied up on the dock right at the front of the ramp, only a metre away from his trailer which is still parked in the water. He appeared in no hurry to either move the boat to the end of the ramp or clear his vehicle.

Even with a kid, if you are worried about leaving them on the boat, keep them in the car, launch the boat, tie off at the end, drive back, park up walk back with kid?

 

When comming back to the ramp the first retrieve lane we got to people had finished winching a boat up onto the ramp.  Benno drops me off on the jetty and walks the boat down the ramp.  I go get car come back, they are in the retrieve layup undoing bungs, unloading eskies, getting ski equipment out etc.  I just pulled up into the bit between the launch and retrieve lanes pulled the boat out went up to the derigging area and was out of the area before they cleared the ramp layup.

They all looked up as I pulled in reversing on the angle with the trailer.  I just think they dont think it applies to them or they just dont care.

On a side note, I work in marine chandlery retail atm and am seriously over peoples attitude in regards to paying out for mandatory saftey equipment.  Seriously people if you are going to bitch about paying up for PFD1's for your <2year old, flares to go out fishing at the barges, radios etc take it up with D.O.T.  Either comply or dont, that means dont bitch about the price making a scene in store or dont bitch about the fine and make a scene in store.

 

Iceman's picture

Posts: 555

Date Joined: 17/03/09

all those who drive off/on

Mon, 2012-01-16 15:00

To all those who drive their boats off/on the trailers.

What you do not realise is that by doing this you are damaging the ramps. The prop wash undermines the ramp itself causing the sand under the ramp to be washed away. Then the concrete collapses.

One of the ramps at the southern end at ocean Reef has already collapsed at the end and had to be repaired.

So next time you go down and your trailer falls in a hole don't blame the ramp.

If you are to lazy to winch it on buy an electric winch.

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Posts: 9363

Date Joined: 21/02/08

Only because they continue to

Mon, 2012-01-16 15:10

Only because they continue to install crappy ramps.

Drive aboard is promoted in the eastern states because it gets people on and off the ramps faster.

Here in Wait Awhile we get people like you accusing us of being lazy for not wanting to clear the ramp.

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id much rather wait then have

Mon, 2012-01-16 15:16

id much rather wait then have to get my trailer repaired every time it goes a hole

 

or extend the concrete so when people drive it on the prop is over concrete not sand. the concrete would still be effected but it would be longer between repairs.

marble's picture

Posts: 620

Date Joined: 03/09/09

 Ha truer words Till. If

Mon, 2012-01-16 16:48

 Ha truer words Till. If everyone had a decent trailer set up and the skill to drive on properly the world would be a wonderful place.

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Willlo's picture

Posts: 543

Date Joined: 07/10/11

The ramps down this way are

Mon, 2012-01-16 17:14

The ramps down this way are concrete and ive never seen 1 undermined,they are plenty long enough for the biggest of boats. As Till said must be crappy ramps. Quindalup is another mostly sand all the time and have no probs driving on/off.Dont spose it would have anything to do with the tides ,wave action etc. I will always drive on /off,me thinks if you are are parked up at the ramp waiting then you dont have the skill or are to chicken to give it a go.

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Mr Bigalow's picture

Posts: 64

Date Joined: 11/12/11

haha

Mon, 2012-01-16 22:36

Reminds me of those people who reverse down and hook the leads from battery in car to trailer winch that is 10000000:1 ratio and takes 20 minutes to winch on.

 

Trailer winches are for pansy's, drive your boat on its the less labour intensive way, the fastest and if you know what your doing you will not damgae the ramp.

 

I also find locally the poeple who whinge about people driving boats on have never tried to hand winch 4 tonne, they dont seem to mind when the rescue boat does it..

 

 

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Posts: 877

Date Joined: 03/05/11

+1

Tue, 2012-01-17 07:52

i have nothing against driving boats on trailers i've been doing it with all the boats i've had. i agree with you about knowing what your doing when you drive it on. Its when people dont back the trailer in far enough and it takes the 4500 RPM to put the boat on the trailer that the sand disappears.

Willlo's picture

Posts: 543

Date Joined: 07/10/11

To true try that down at

Tue, 2012-01-17 10:50

To true try that down at Hamelin Bay,the longer you stay at the bottom of that ramp the more likely you are to have a drama.

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Juiced Up's picture

Posts: 36

Date Joined: 04/01/12

Mr Bigalow, the new winches

Tue, 2012-01-17 11:29

Mr Bigalow, the new winches seem to be pretty good though. I dont have a boat yet so I cant really say either way, but I saw a guy with a big Black ally at the Dampier yacht club last year winch his on quicker than everyone else who was driving on. He seemed to know what he was doing as he had a beer in his hand the whole time as well!

May have been a 1 off though.

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saltydog's picture

Posts: 140

Date Joined: 21/11/07

 Should have been part of the

Tue, 2012-01-17 10:42

 Should have been part of the skippers ticket!!!!!

You own a boat, prove that you can launch and retrieve it in a correct manner and within a certain amount of time

and have a some sort of clue about ramp etiquette!!!

 

 

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Mr Bigalow's picture

Posts: 64

Date Joined: 11/12/11

Juiced up i have seen those

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:39

Juiced up i have seen those winches but i dont think they make them for men!!

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A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.