boat starting batteries suggestions
Hi all.
Looking for some suggestions on replacement 12V starter batteries for a 250 Suzuki that will last longer than 2 years.
My latest pair, a couple of Delkors, appear to be giving up the ghost after 2.5 years. One is showing full green on the SOC indicator, but drops to 10.7V even after a decent charge and recondition - shorted cell i guess. The other is showing mostly black with the the tiniest hint of green on the SOC indicator, but still measures 12.6V a few days after a charge and recondition. Lucky i check these things regularly because i run my batteries in parallel pretty much all the time, so could have ended up with 2 dead batteries on the water. My mates continuously give me shit about it, but it's in my blood and pretty much my bread and butter.
I went Delkor once my Yuasas failed after less than 2 years in service, and had Centurys prior to that which didn't last much longer. Delkors are supposedly better, and this view is definitely reflected in their price, and was really hoping to get more out of them. The batteries are cared for and receive top ups from a CTEK every few months and and get a recondition annually. Givem the batteries pretty much always in parallel, they see the same load cycles and charging cycles, so i am puzzled why one battery in this instance failed as it did.
Look forward to hearing about some battery success stories based on actual experience.
Cheers.
Tom.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
You don't mention the size
You don't mention the size or type of the batteries which is a major factor on a big 250?
I am assuming that these are solely start batteries and not used at all for any loads while engines are off, in which case Caterpillar batteries may be the go.
Personally I used Century Marine Pro 780's but with twin DF115 plus ran my fridge of them and sold the boat with maybe 5 yrs on them?
Start batteries do not like a regular discharge to below somewhere between 50 to 80%, nor do any batteries like overloading due to undersize/heavy current start loads especially combined Start/deep cycle.
And I have to ask, why on earth do you run in parallel "pretty much all the time"?
Why bother with a dual battery system at all, as it looks like you know the pitfalls of poor battery management?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
Got 7 years out of RAC
Got 7 years out of RAC marine batteries. Just replaced with the same. Always switched off when not used. Only once a year will they see a charger.
VaSSagO
Posts: 126
Date Joined: 09/12/09
Dont run in parrallel and I
Dont run in parrallel and I bet you will give 5+ years out of what ever battery
Could get lithium starter batteries, $699 from the shop in Burswood (I have no experience in these but they look good)
https://itechworld.com.au/products/1420ca-12-volt-lithium-battery-itech1420-cranking
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Hi Rob H. The Delkors are
Hi Rob H.
The Delkors are M31 units.
The previous batteries were N70Z size if i remember correctly.
The batteries are run in parallel pretty always because i do a fair bit of cruising, a lot of trolling, and plenty of sounding, thus the outboard rarely gets shutdown. For the times i'm doing a longer drift, i just don't bother switching to a single battery.
Additionally, the volt drop on a single battery during starting is crazy on these big engines, and often drops out my electronics, so i always start with 2 batteries, even though according to Suzuki one should suffice.
My day job is on one of the largest islanded power systems in the state, so i'm all too familiar on the technical aspects of managing batteries. Happy to take on feedback on how i should operate the batteries if anything i'm doing is potentially killing them prematurely, but i think it just comes down to getting something harder wearing, hence the call for recommendations.
Thanks.
Tom.
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
A few have already mentioned
A few have already mentioned not to run the batteries in parallel.
Curious as to the reasoning for this? I don't see how running the batteries in parallel can cause premature failure.
I was of the understanding when underway the batteries should be paralleled to allow both to be charged and when the outboard is not running, that's when the batteries should technically be separated.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
The reasoning is that
The reasoning is that exactly as you have alluded to, if one battery drops a cell properly it can draw down both and leave you with nothing.
A faulty cell can absorb all your charge or when stopped drain your good one.
The only time you should ever run on both, is if you need to start on 2 due to lack of charge and then (especially in that case) swap to one thru the "both" setting.
If your electronics drop out when you are using a healthy correctly sized battery then there is either an earth causing increased resistance, a worn starter possibly, worn change over switch or excessive volt drop via the wiring to your electronics or something along those lines.
Its not uncommon for boats to be built with the minimum wiring to the front then (say) a 1or 3KW sounder added which pushes the limits or low quality wiring causing excessive resistance due to deterioration or a combination of all the above.
There are ways to narrow down the issue (assuming the batteries are correct) such as testing volt drop at the batteries (seperately) then at the starter motor etc
I'm not sure of your electrical experience so haven't gone too deep (certainly can go further if you need), I am a marine engineer myself and have worked on and with boats all my life.
I cannot count the times we have helped fishing and rec boats that had flat batteries after running on "both" following "we had to jump it at the ramp this morning as well".
I notice also that the M31 is a dual use with 730CCA, not sure of the DF250 spec but that would seem only adequate.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Seaquest
Posts: 1132
Date Joined: 22/10/09
I have got 8 years out of my
I have got 8 years out of my first pair of Delkor battries and the current Delkors are 5 years old and still going strong.
Something isn't right to only get 2 years out of them.
scubafish
Posts: 949
Date Joined: 15/08/12
TRY
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Marine_RV-Application-Selector-Guide-0406.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=8A31DTM+battery&source=lnms&tbm=vid&biw=1260&bih=582
http://img.gg/BQ91Sys
SeperateKnob
Posts: 660
Date Joined: 28/11/16
The idea is to have two
The idea is to have two totally seperate isolated banks so in the event one bank goes flat or faulty the other bank is used as redundantancy. I start and transit out on batt 1 and return on batt2. So both are getting a charge and you will know when either bank is on its way out.
beeroclock
Posts: 733
Date Joined: 22/08/12
Im not even gonna pretend that i know much
about this topic but thought id just add my recent experience. I got my mechanic to wire up a dual battery system with a VSR unit for a new F250 Yammy. startiuing battery is an exide marine 730cca and house battery is exide deep cycle 120a/h. I start and run all day on battery no 1. (starting battery) No probs with starting or electronics dropping out etc. My understanding is the VSR detectes if one battery drops voltage then redirects current to it so both batteries are always charged.
scubafish
Posts: 949
Date Joined: 15/08/12
?
Beeroclock did they fit one of these ?
http://colehersee.com.au/product/dual-battery-switch/
I have the out board +(Poss) connected to the comm post and leave it on Batt 1 ,vsr is connected to Batt 1+(poss)and 2+(poss)(house) batt's on the Cole hersee switch also have two volt readouts meters on dash to monitor both Batt's
That way if start batt shit's itself i can start with batt 2 (house ) without any problems .
Switch wire to taco in dash from VSR so it doesn't drain power from VSR when Cole Hersee is in off Poss. VSR only activates when ignition is on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQp5d5mMio
http://img.gg/BQ91Sys
scubafish
Posts: 949
Date Joined: 15/08/12
?
Beeroclock did they fit one of these ? http://colehersee.com.au/product/dual-battery-switch/ I have the outboard +(Poss) connected to the comm post and leave it on Batt 1 ,vsr is connected to Batt 1+(poss)and 2+(poss)(house) batt's on the Cole hersee switch also have two volt readouts meters on dash to monitor both Batt's That way if start batt shit's itself i can start with batt 2 (house ) without any problems . Switch wire to taco in dash from VSR so it doesn't drain power from VSR when Cole Hersee is in off Poss. VSR only activates when ignition is on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQp5d5mMio
http://img.gg/BQ91Sys
beeroclock
Posts: 733
Date Joined: 22/08/12
Its a BLUE SEA battery switch with AFD
thats all i know mate.
scubafish
Posts: 949
Date Joined: 15/08/12
yep
same ,just different brand, output lug is common. Is outboard cable + connected to output lug on switch ?
http://img.gg/BQ91Sys
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Hi all. Given the feedback
Hi all.
Given the feedback received, i'm thinking i've just been unfortunate and suffered an early/unexpected failure of one battery, which has subsequently pulled down the other battery while sitting at home. I have contacted the business that sold me the batteries and immediately told me to bring it in, which i will be doing on Friday, so fingers crossed they are able to help me out.
Seaquest - 8 years out of a marine battery is epic! This sort of validates my thought on the early/unexpected failure of my battery.
Rob H - The electrical installation on the boat is definitley Mickey Mouse. This includes the alternator (both winding resistances and output voltages are within Suzuki spec), starter motor (winding resistance within Suzuki spec), sizing of the OEM starter cables, and load cables. Also, just to correct you, when the outboard is running and both batteries are in parallel, a faulty battery will not absorb all the charge. It will draw a higher current and could subsequently cause a slightly lower output voltage from the alternator (due to increased volt drop), but this will be in the order 0.1V less, so for all intents an purposes the healthy battery will still be getting charged. When the outboard if off, whole different ball game, and the faulty battery will definitely draw down on the healthy battery if paralleled. It is for these reasons i run the batteries in parallel while the outboard is running, and say the batteries should technically be separated when the outboard is off. The consequences of potentially overcharging a faulty battery is not the topic of this discussion, because it can happen irrespective of the faulty battery being charged as part of a paralleled pair or individually.
I've had an interesting track record with the electrical system of my setup, and thankfully my electrical prowess has enabled me sort out some deficiencies before it left me stranded on the water. Before buying the Delkors, on my way home from a super deep trip i got a few random low voltage alarms, and noticed the voltage on the gauges was hovering around 12.0V most of the time even at ~5000rpm. Got busy investigating the next day and found several diodes shorted on both voltage regulator units (or what most outboard manufacturers would refer to as the "chargers"). The Yuasas i had at the time were not playing ball and failed to hold charge even after a few shots with with CTEK. I suspected the failed regulator units was the reason for their demise - the shorted diodes obviously lowered the output DC voltage, but worse still allowed AC voltage to get through to the batteries (this is what i suspect ultimately killed them). At the time i do recall thinking it was a bit unusual not seeing a voltage measurement above 14.0V for the few trips prior to getting the low voltage alarms, but just shrugged it off as the voltage regulator doing its thing. Nearly 4 weeks (ex Japan) and $600 later, new rectifiers installed. An additional $530 for a new pair of batteries (i.e. the Delkors), saw the electrical system restored to normal functionaility again. I've checked the rectifiers again this time around and they are still fine.
In response to all the replies above, i appreciate everyone's feedback, but the fact that i run my batteries in parallel is not the cause of the failure. I have my reasons for running operating them the way i do, and everyone else has their reasons for operating the way they do, each with their pros and cons, so we will have to settle on the differences in opinion on this matter. After the experience i've had thus far, one thing for sure is that i'm actually going to invest in some additional battery monitoring so that i can track the actual SOC of each battery (proper monitors that track voltage and current flow in and out fo battery, not the useless voltage only types), and i will be topping up the batteries with the CTEK after EVERY outing.
Cheers.
Tom.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
No worries Tom, you did ask
No worries Tom, you did ask a very simply worded question without alluding to your electrical experience, and have explained why you will continue running on parallel.
The interesting thing to point out, is that in the very same post you describe that even with gauges to indicate insufficient charge voltage you continued to operate for several trips on "both" and still don't realise the potential for ending up with 2 flat batteries?
Had you run as it should be, (only ever on one unless needed to crank) you would get home still, whether it was because of a failed rectifier or dodgy battery.
You were lucky not to be stranded.
A faulty cell, I'm not going to contest the possible volt drop, but I can assure you I have seen a much greater than 0.1VDC drop in charge on a faulty battery.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Hi Rob H. I mentioned I
Hi Rob H.
I mentioned I didn't see voltages above 14.0V, to be more specific it was in the mid to high 13s, which is typical for float voltages on battery chargers, hence why i said i assumed it was just the regulator doing its thing and no major alarm bells were ringing. I'm sure i'm not the only one that only occassionaly glances at instruments, so for all i know it could have been at 14.4V at some stage. Things obviously went down hill to critical levels on that one trip, and fyi the alarms only started popping up a few miles from the ramp after a very long day on the water, so my focus was on getting home before dark. If i had stopped to investigate, theoretically there is a possibility i wouldn't have been able to crank the motor.
One doesn't expect the voltage regulator / "charger" to fail, and having batteries in parallel or separated is a moot point in this situation (i.e. if i was operating on a single battery, i would have been forced to swap to the second battery at some stage throughout the day when the alarms were going off, and the second battery would have met the same demise). One thing i will say though that justifies the parallel configuration on this occassion, the slower discharge rate per battery with them in parallel no doubt made them last longer before alarms were triggered (eg. parallel bank with each battery discharging at a rate of 5A each, vs 1 battery at a rate of 10A then changing over to second battery at a rate of 10A).
The voltage regulators in question are essentially a black box and i don't have a detailed understanding of how they work, but since this incident i have built up a mental database of how they work, and from what i gather they are WAYYY overpriced for what they do lol.
I cop shit from my mates because of the time i spend maintaining my boat, and the electrical system gets some extra special attention just because i can and i have expertise in the area. I may sound like i'm getting defensive - and i'm not - but as you alluded i did ask a simple question and to be honest was expecting a simple answer, not to be crucified for how i operate my system or perceived recklessness on the water
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
No crucifying or any such
No crucifying or any such thing.
Conversation over I guess
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
My post was cut short
My post was cut short because i inserted an emoji....
I continued to say i had my pride and honour to protect
I'm also all about educating people on complex topics, and i think it's cool that such a simple question generated a detailed discussion, and i hope other members reading the thread don't shy away from the long post. There are some gold nuggets in there.
Cheers.
Tom.
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Beeroclock. The VSR you have
Beeroclock.
The VSR you have installed basically automates how i'm saying i run (or technically should) a dual battery system. That is, isolates the batteries when outboard is not running, but parallels them when the outboard is running.
You explanation of how your system works is partially correct. The outboard's voltage regulator / "charger" typically outputs a minimum of 13.5V, and a lead acid battery's float charge is ~12.6V, so when the VSR detects a voltage >13V (typical example) it assumes the system is charging and parallels the batteries. When the VSR detects a voltage <13V, it assumes the system is not charging and isolates the two batteries. Crude, but effective, and is what a majority of 4WDs use for their dual battery setups.
Some VSRs also have an overide to force the batteries to be paralleled if required, but a separate switch is required for this.
With your setup, you always start with Batt 1, when running you charge both, and when not running loads are coming off Batt 2 (assuming all your loads are connected via Batt 2).
Hope this helps you understand the setup ypu have.
beeroclock
Posts: 733
Date Joined: 22/08/12
Thanks mate, yes i attached all my electronics (VHF radio,
2 sounders. stereo system, nav lights) directly onto the deep cycle battery 2. Quick question for ya (coz i forgot to ask boat mechanic and like i said i dont know much at all about dual battery systems) - If i wanna charge batteries at home with battery charger I presume i should attach charger to starting battery 1 . What position should the battery isolating switch be in to charge both batteries at the same time 1, 1+2, 2 or OFF. Or do i leave it in the off position and the VSR will direct current to both batteries as needed.
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Beeroclock. Interesting you
Beeroclock.
Interesting you have a VSR and a battery switch.
I can't really comment on your specific config without knowing how it's wired.
I only have a battery switch, and will charge each battery separately with the switch in off.
Alternatively you can charge the battery not connected to the electrical system (i.e. if switch in on 1, charge Batt2).
As a general rule you should not have the boat's electrics connected to a charger if you don't have a detailed understanding of the charger's output and operating modes. Some modes have the potential to damage electronics.
dano83
Posts: 790
Date Joined: 25/05/12
In my cruiser when I hook
In my cruiser when I hook solar up I hook it to the start battery and the vsr will click to the second battery
id say that's what you need to do. As the battery charger will be Charing instead of the alternator same principle.
SeperateKnob
Posts: 660
Date Joined: 28/11/16
I usually get around 6-7
I usually get around 6-7 years for the Exide Orbital AGM batteries and they are lighter for the output than standard batts.
Mrlickalotopus
Posts: 108
Date Joined: 27/07/16
I use a two Bosch M4
I use a two Bosch M4 HCM31-830. I keep them in parallel when under way on the way out & then isolate 1 when fishing and stay on 1 for the return trip. I always check the battery's a day before a fish.
dano83
Posts: 790
Date Joined: 25/05/12
Stupid question chevaps but
Stupid question chevaps but have you ever discharged the battery too low. Or have you checked the c teck isn't faulty and overcharged the batteries?
I have only had batteries fail in my land cruiser for the low discharge reason And since I rectified the problem no issues at all
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Hi dano83. Never discharged
Hi dano83.
Never discharged the battery too low. As i say, i rarely turn off the outboard when on the water, even when drifting.
The CTEK is definitely not overcharging the batteries. I have an Optima D34 that is around 10 years old that i now only use for deep dropping expeditions, and it still holds voltage after a top up charge on the CTEK. Can't vouch for the CCA of the D34, but does the job for my (and decky) electric reels.
Jim
Posts: 1321
Date Joined: 05/05/06
Just from reading your first
Just from reading your first post mate all the batteries you have had (century's, yusasas, delkors ) all have failed after a couple of years? somethings not right somewhere with your system. Seems more than a coincidence? I like the seamasters but only have a 115hp.
Bend over
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
Hi Jim. In a subsequent post
Hi Jim.
In a subsequent post i clarified that i did have issues with the charging system on the boat with the Yuasas, which i believe is likely to be the demise of them and the Centurys prior. That was rectified (pardon the pun) at the same time i bought the Delkors, and i went through the electrics with a fine toothed comb, and everything checked out. Since rectifying the issue with the charging system, i have been paying more attention to the system voltage provided by the outboard over N2K, and it has been in the low to mid 14V region since, and I have put a multimeter on the alternator output to confirm there is no AC coming through (and i wouldn't expect any since the rectifiers are good).
One of my Delkors dropped a cell - which also pulled down the other battery connected to it within a few hours. A dropped cell is unlikley to be caused by the charging system, and the business that sold me the batteries said this is the first time they've seen this on a Delkor. I should hear back from them tomorrow, hopefully with some good news, even though the batteries are a little over 2 years old.
Jim
Posts: 1321
Date Joined: 05/05/06
Sounds good, good to hear the
Sounds good, good to hear the supplier coming to the party
Bend over
chevaps
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 04/01/13
An update. 1 battery replaced
An update.
1 battery replaced under warranty despite being 2.5 years old - confirmed shorted cell.
The other battery still had some life, degraded, but was offered the option of getting a replacement battery for cost price. I tried to push the fact that the battery with the shorted cell caused the other battery to be deeply discharged and subsequently damage it, but that reasoning didn't fly. I guess i can't complain with 2 new batteries after 2.5 years in service for a fraction of the cost. As annoying as it is having to dish out more cash, i think the seller of the batteries was doing me a solid by pushing it with his distributor despite being out of warranty.
I've just purchased some new Victron gear to mointor the status of my batteries, and will be installing a new AGM battery dedicated to all my consumers once i figure out the dimensions i've got to work with. I'm also going to increase the frequency of my top up charges. Not taking any chances with my batteries any more.
Cheers.
Tom.