Divers( important)
Scuba. Hooker. Or free dive. Phantomcat won in local court. On take rule. Every diver knows almost impossible to gauge Crays underwater (depending on conditions). How would every diver like fisheries being on boat prior to all divers being on board. Apparently soon as diver lifts bag up, that's it. I don't think so. 5 min rule. (didn't happen) Also keep in mind this is the 1st case they have tried in court. also keep in mind this is 65 year old with support from recfish. (in court) poor guy also copped mouthful outside of court apparently in front of wife and lawyer.(unsure)??. fisheries taking to Supreme Court Big big money, talking big lawyers. wouldnt be bad idea for few people supporting the guy. Stress and big bucks. 200 plus people in court would help. All divers look into this case. it will affect all of you in future. Up to to you guys. Some things kept out media :);)
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Your 100%
Correct Tom. But I personally think it's crap.:):)
Tom M
Posts: 661
Date Joined: 22/09/15
Agree mate just lazy law.
Agree mate just lazy law.
Tom M
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Not being a diver
Can some of the diving fraternity tell me if you dive for crays in dirty water, by that I mean water that is clouded by sand being stirred up in shallow water over reefs etc.
If so about how far up or down the water column does this extend to mar your vision, I have looked over the side of the boat on many many occasions and you can't see more than 200mm below the surface the restricted vision caused by clouds of sand.
If your vision is impaired by cloudy water then what the proposal is asking you to do (in checking out crays for legality) is quite impossible. IMO until you are above the water.
As I have stated before, I'll sing loudly praises for fisheries when they do there work well, which IMO is 99.9% of the time. I will also loudly condemn their actions which can not be demonstrated to be in the best interests of preserving fishing bio masses and showing clearly the benefits to be had by such new rules etc.
In this case fisheries, are IMO bordering on asking people to carry out the near impossible unless conditions are ideal, could this be a move by fisheries to change the regulation/laws guide before a certain case goes before the court in January next year.
The very same department has chosen to turn a blind eye to the huge increase above the determined acceptable level of catch of YFW (by their own assessment of sustainable stock) the rape and pillage that the pros are doing to the stocks of yellow fin whiting at Mandurah.
Sandgroper-WA
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 27/02/11
Its not just an issue of how
Its not just an issue of how clear the water is. Do you have snot on the inside on of your mask? How much swell is around? How deep are you diving? Tarspot and eggs are pretty easy to see. However setose females can be a pain to pick if the hairs are underdeveloped or very small.
I might have some footage from the start of the season when the swell was up, showing just how much you can be rolled around while trying to catch them.
hooty
Posts: 198
Date Joined: 25/05/10
Megladon To all your
Megladon
To all your questions, of course you cant. Read through the threads and you will see the district court doesnt believe you can either, much to Fisheries dismay as they lost the court case. But when you have unlimited public funds ( our license fees ) you can take it to the supreme court, where the poor recreational licenced fisher is unable to respond because of the cost. Disgracefull!! and the end to any cooperation I will ever give to Fisheries. Nothing more than glorified car park police.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Fisheries
Been travelling all day and just jumped on to see this stuff.
Time to get the campaign going again maybe of writing/emailing I think.
Unfortunately I am flatout for the next week so wont be able to get something running til then.
Have a boat going on the slipway then gearing up for a project.
Once it settles down here I will start putting some contacts together.
Meantime though, just use the same contacts for Minister and Fisheries as earlier published here, plus your local representative
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
scottnofish
Posts: 1621
Date Joined: 28/08/07
Watching all 4 adventure on tv now
And jason and his mate have done this exact thing on national tv .2 divers filling 1 catch bag and gauging on the boat at the abrolhos islands
gruntre69
Posts: 533
Date Joined: 15/10/16
Assistance possible
Hi all, I haven't read this whole thread but I have a friend who is a diver and a barrister who is possibly willing to help with this court case. She would likely do it free of charge if she understands the situation and agrees that the fisheries are out of line. Not sure when the case is be heard but if you know phantomcat ask him to contact me and I'll put him in touch. If it was me, I'm sure I'd prefer to have a barrister in court with me.... I've also sent a PM to Phantomcat.
Marine trimmer NOR (available for clears, tops, carpet, upholstery, custom equipment covers)
scotto
Posts: 2471
Date Joined: 21/04/08
yew!
hopefully this gets back to phantomcat! good work gruntre
Swompa
Posts: 3902
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Nice one.
Nice one.
DTrain
Posts: 486
Date Joined: 10/02/12
He left his email on the
He left his email on the previous page: phantomcat@iinet.net.au
Would be nice if you could get him some help.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
I have already passed this
I have already passed this along to Bret, he will contact you.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
axey45
Posts: 1758
Date Joined: 26/11/13
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
.
that was 6 months ago
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Stevo81
Posts: 1278
Date Joined: 16/04/12
Good onya mate!
•••••••• Electrical Contractor NOR ••••••••
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Well done
May good karma come your way and your cray pots be always full.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Has this matter come to an end
I haven't been able to find out if the appeal over this matter has been held and what the out come was/is.
can anyone please give me a heads up on the status of this matter.
Thanks
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
28th of Feb in the Supreme
28th of Feb in the Supreme Court of WA.
It seems that pretty much all of the generous offers of assistance came to nothing.
And so Bret may be there alone (still finding out more on that score but I have almost no phone cover)
Im going to be out at sea unfortunately or Id drive down to be there.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
axey45
Posts: 1758
Date Joined: 26/11/13
big john
Posts: 8756
Date Joined: 20/07/06
Crowdfunding
Re-reading the post plenty of guys were offering to chip in a few dollars. Did Phantomcat set up a crowd funding campaign?
Did anything eventuate with Gruntre's offer of the possible assistance of a barrister? Was that followed up?
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
Jigs available online in my web store!
gruntre69
Posts: 533
Date Joined: 15/10/16
Hi All,Unfortunately I am
Hi All,
Unfortunately I am not a lawyer and I didn't make any offers aothe than to make connections. I know one who hinted she might help. I passed on the contact and asked the question but that's about all I can do. These guys are keen divers too so I was hoping that she would follow up. As far as I know this hasn't happened at this stage. She does have the case details and has looked at it but hasn't moved it forward.
Not much more I can do other that follow up with a few emails and a call which I am doing.
Marine trimmer NOR (available for clears, tops, carpet, upholstery, custom equipment covers)
big john
Posts: 8756
Date Joined: 20/07/06
.
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
Jigs available online in my web store!
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
axey45
Posts: 1758
Date Joined: 26/11/13
Phantomcat
Posts: 35
Date Joined: 12/04/16
Apologies for not posting
I had returned to this post a few times but hadn't seen much happening, then I realised there was a page 2 to this discussion. - maybe I've been diving too deep.
So its good to see the ongoing support.
There hasn't been much happening with the ongoing discussions with the fisheries - stalemate?
I see they added a stipulation on diving for crays in the 2016-17 guide ( not in the legislation yet?) so they obviously acknowledge the need to clarify the rules.
It would have been nice to publicly anounce their intentions and I question why they put it in the guide if its not law?
I have had a chat with the barrister mentioned above ( thanks gruntre69) so now have some legal help.
The appeal is at 10pm on the 28th Feb for 2 hrs in court 10 at the Supreme court ( Barrack and St Georges Tce)
Whatever the outcome we will be at the nearest bar around lunch time.
Regards
Phantomcat
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
That is good news Bret, I
That is good news Bret, I have also dropped some correspondence to RFW on the matter but that is probably superfluous now.
Sorry I couldnt ring, but even though we can see the towers at Exmouth sometimes, phone signal is shit!
If I dont get to talk to you beforehand, be certain that I will be thinking about you at the time and wish you the best of luck (in a court case, rediculous that its needed...)
Myself, whatever the outcome, I thank you for not laying down in the face of Fisheries relentless, pointless and unacceptable conduct.
I know this is at a great cost to you at more than one level.
I would have driven down to be there had I been home
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Changes to the guide
To the best of my knowledge whenever there is a change to the guide for specific fishing types, netting, catching rock lobster extra the change is usually highlighted in red on the cover to bring peoples attention to the change.
If you have a look at the cover of the 2016 - 2017 guide for fishing for rock lobster the change re: measuring looking for setose extra and the requirement specifically for divers is not highlighted as are other amendments that have been made.
Does anyone know why this is.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
this was discussed on one of
this was discussed on one of the threads relating to this.
To me, a lawyer was probably consulted, who advised that if they put it on the cover as a change they would be acknowledging there has been a change and damage their case
to SHAFT the shit out of Bret.
They will not acknowledge a "change" because their case is that it has always been this way, but they forgot to tell anyone.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Phantomcat
Posts: 35
Date Joined: 12/04/16
Changed to Court 7
Cheers
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Waiting for result with bated breath
Do we have a result yet, fingers toes eyes crossed for you Phantomcat.
eziliving
Posts: 876
Date Joined: 30/12/09
Go stick it the f***ers
Go stick it the f***ers phantom cat, all the best
Get busy living, or get busy dying!
uncle
Posts: 9490
Date Joined: 10/02/07
All the best for tomorrow
Brett, kick arse
all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Good luck phantom
At work otherwise I would be there. The change makes them look bad. Most important a guide is only a guide. Not in rules . Closed case . Good to see tax payers money going to great cause.
Phantomcat
Posts: 35
Date Joined: 12/04/16
Appeal
I felt the hearing went well.Their arguments were a bit weak and tended to go in circle at times.
The judge has reserved his decision until we both submit more submissions.
There will be no cost win or loose for the appeal and I will get the costs awarded to me from the previous hearing again win or loose.
So to me thats means no conviction unless I loose the appeal and we go to a retrial and loose?
Stay tuned
Cheers
Bret
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Sounds good Bret
.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Thanks for the update Bret
Thanks for the update Bret
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Your update is much appreciated
From what you have written it sounds promising, did they (DoF) say just what it was they where appealing against. Was it the judges/magistrates decision based on the weight he gave to the word "take" or they felt he had just made a decision that was flawed and not supported by fact.
Phantomcat
Posts: 35
Date Joined: 12/04/16
Ruling on Take
They wanted a ruling on the TAKE - would have been easier just to reword the rules instead of draging me through it.
There is a bit more to it but I wont go there now ( maybe later??)
lets wait for the decision probably early April
Cheers
Oldbull
Posts: 179
Date Joined: 21/09/15
If it is a ruling on "Take"
Then there may be issues for catch and release fishing or even the measure and release of an undersize demersal.
If I catch a 49cm Dhui, bring it into the boat ( ie "Take" from its environment) have I committed an offence.
Stupid rule I know but whats the difference between catch and release an u/s cray and catch and release a u/s Dhui.
DoF need to get some common sense
I just looked at DoF guide on fishing in WA. Throughout the document (see section 8 for example) they make reference to the word "Take"
So the court's ruling on the word take is critical.
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
Would be best if we kept the
Would be best if we kept the lid on that can of worms hey
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Thats what its all about.It
Thats what its all about.
It would seem obvious to most clear thinking people, that if Fisheries feel there is a need to reassess the definition of take then the best way would be to state why, have the changes documented and then provide some community consultation or education.
Not start fining people and let word spread, then surrepticiously add it inside the brochure without noting a change on the front cover after someone takes them on.
Bret didnt play the game, and whichever way the cards fall, there is more work to be done on this situation.
We all owe Bret a debt of gratitude for standing up when the easy way was to get bent over.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Well put
A very good post setting out the situation very clearly, well done
axey45
Posts: 1758
Date Joined: 26/11/13
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
.
.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Sam57
Posts: 104
Date Joined: 17/08/14
Maybe we all need to vote in
Maybe we all need to vote in members of the shooters & fishing party at next election and have them sort the pricks out.
kknlk
Posts: 200
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Chiming in late but there
Chiming in late but there may be a huge consequence to the commercial sector if the word take is used there. It may affect how they process crays. If so this will be a greater outcry and force Government to do something about the wording. I think that Phantomcat has been harshly treated as I know that if a department has an issue with interpretation and like to have the Court sort it out sometimes the legal costs of the other party are fully covered. In the meantime inundate your MP and make your displeasure known esp when it's now election mode.
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
The stress
He would be going through. All because someone's interpretation of the work take.
Moking
Posts: 1252
Date Joined: 30/05/12
Agree with your comment and
Agree with your comment and the ensuring lack of quality sleep that he must be experiencing now, without any word from the Dept or Courts for months?
My Dad taught me how to Fish-Thanks Dad.(RIP)
sea-kem
Posts: 15023
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Like I said, commonsense out
Like I said, commonsense out the window here.
Love the West!
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
In a court room
There is no such thing as common sense in a court of law, that's the first mistake a lot of people make. What you and I call common sense to others is foolish, dangerous, reckless and half a dozen other things.
The reason there are a lot of lawyers is so that they can spend a day arguing about what a word means, to us common people its meaning is as plain as the nose on your face, to others it's not so.
I have seen an argument go on for 3 days in the supreme court over what is meant by the word "tube" and "pipe".
Swompa
Posts: 3902
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Clearly, tube is a thick
Clearly, tube is a thick washer and pipe is a drilled out circle.
gruntre69
Posts: 533
Date Joined: 15/10/16
Bump
Has anybody heard what the judge decided in this case. Surely there had been a decision by now.....????
Marine trimmer NOR (available for clears, tops, carpet, upholstery, custom equipment covers)
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
He is still waiting
He got some money back after last court case. Been months now as far as I know it was only suppose to be few weeks wait??.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
The great waiting game
Lets all hope that when a decision is finial handed down it goes in phantom cats favour.
When this is finally resolved I think it is encumbering on all of us who chase rock lobsters (crays to you and me) to take it up with the minister to have this sort of stupid action really clarified and spelt out quite clearly just what is required to "take" crays from a pot.
I believe that should stupidity and lack of knowledge prevail and the DoF interpretation stand then there will be such a back lash from the cray industry that there will be drastic changes to the legislation.
The government has listened to the people with regards to the modern school relocation matter and has accepted that the will of the people is at odds with its (the government) plans and has acted accordingly.
Lets hope that the same happens with this matter.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Spoke to him a couple of
Spoke to him a couple of days back and still nothing.
A write up in the West a few weeks back about the Supreme Court being completely overwhelmed only reinforces the complete lack of respect and deference to our legal system by the WAF.
What a fucking pointless, wasteful, disrespectful and vindictive process this has been...
All for jackshit no matter the outcome.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Question couple on here will know
Few people paid fine for same offence ( which isn't against any rule in book). So if phantom is cleared for a none offence . Will fisheries give a call to prior people .and give there money back. Only rumour I heard on grape vine .could be wrong.when they catch someone its in news ,papers ,on here instantly. This one pushed under carpet . Why??
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
There is at least 2 or 3
There is at least 2 or 3 that I came across when I was pushing this across the Facebook diving pages.
You didnt hear because they rolled over and paid the fine without contesting it in court.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Mmmm
They just paid fine. No dought fisheries will refund them. No dought same officer.? 2 I know rolled over and paid. They lost in my books. But don't want it published. 99 percent they do good job ( fisheries) but some times they f--k up. Guess what that doesn't hit news. Why?
MarkTheShark
Posts: 27
Date Joined: 16/06/12
Joke
Dont see why there is so much support for this bloke, 25 crays in a bag? smells fishy to me
eziliving
Posts: 876
Date Joined: 30/12/09
Just like you being a member
Just like you being a member on this forum for 5 years with only 27 posts. Smells like a troll to me.
Get busy living, or get busy dying!
MarkTheShark
Posts: 27
Date Joined: 16/06/12
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
I didn't know amount
He had. First I've heard amount . Didn't even get brought up in first court case. Just curious where did you get number from??
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
To the best of my knowledge
I haven't heard of any allegation of there being too many crays being brought up to the boat, I would also like to know where this figure of 25 came from.
Alan James
Posts: 2227
Date Joined: 30/06/09
Where did the figure of 25 come from?
Read Phantomcat's first post on page 1 of this thread and it will become clear.
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Okay
That long ago . Cheers
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
That was the whole premise
That was the whole premise of the original case.
3 divers, 2 dive bags only and he was seperated from the others with one of the 2 dive bags.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Not worth getting into
Rob . I know the bag side of things and what occurred . Why would I explain to someone who never contributes and explain why phantom has got support .:):) cheers
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
.
ha, yeah was thinking that as well...
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Ooops my mistake
Yep should have read all the posts and not trusted my memory, sorry.
Phantomcat
Posts: 35
Date Joined: 12/04/16
The time has come.
Judgement will handed down at 2:15 on Friday 30th June.
Cheers
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
All the best, may true
All the best, may true justice prevail.
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Good luck
:):)
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Wishing phantomcat all the best
May the truth of justice prevail.
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
Wish I was home for this,
Wish I was home for this, would be there
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
Good luck!
I'm not a diver and have NFI on the legal stuff regarding diving bag limits etc but good on you for giving fisheries the middle finger when they're wrong.
All the best with the court case!
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Told ya already but I'll say
Told ya already but I'll say it again
Best of luck but its in the lap of the gods now.
Out at sea but dying to hear the outcome...
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Swompa
Posts: 3902
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Fingers crossed for ya, mate
Fingers crossed for ya, mate
uncle
Posts: 9490
Date Joined: 10/02/07
thrown out I
reakon,hoping so
all aggressive fish love bigjohnsjigs
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Anyone one
Heard verdict jet??
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
I hope they are celebrating
I hope they are celebrating at a pub.
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Pm sent
Peter
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
thanks for the pm fellas ..
thanks for the pm fellas .. appreciated
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
Phantomcat
Posts: 35
Date Joined: 12/04/16
Appeal
The appeal was lost so the judge recomended a retrial in the Magistrates court.
Here we go again
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
There appeal
Not yours I gather. So they have lost in 2 different courts?
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
Ok so fisheries appeal and
Ok so fisheries appeal and loose and goes to retrial. Well that's justice for us, fuc#ed up on so many levels
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
Alan James
Posts: 2227
Date Joined: 30/06/09
To provide some clarity
the appeal by Fisheries was successful, hence the retrial.
little johnny
Posts: 5363
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Okay I'm
Confused ,fisheries appealed first loss. I thought this was there appeal? Not phantoms
Alan James
Posts: 2227
Date Joined: 30/06/09
...
Bret's comment above that the appeal was lost was made from his perspective. Summarising events; the first case Bret won, Fisheries then appealed that verdict and today that appeal was determined successful meaning the first judgement is now overturned so we are back to square one.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
was waiting for Bret but its out here
Fisheries lost in Magistrates Court
Appealed verdict in Supreme Court and won
Now despite my local member assuring me direct from the then Fisheries Minister that they only wanted the verdict and nothing more, they are going to retry Bret in Local Court
This is just fucking criminal if they go ahead with it, fucked up on a big scale
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Walfootrot
Posts: 1385
Date Joined: 23/07/12
Not wrong wear a man or his
Not wrong wear a man or his money down, sux
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!