Outboard rebuild?
Hi guys
I've been a member on here for while now and have enjoyed reading most of the posts. A great bunch of people you guys are and the topics & discussions are very helpful and enjoyable to read. This is my first post on here and I need a bit of advice.
My current boat is a VOYAGER LTD 18.6ft half cabin. It is an incredible boat and I have decked it out with bimini/rocket launcher, EPIRB, Lowrance Elite 5DSI Sounder/GPS & Garmin 300c Fishfinder, and also heaps of other "cool" and useful things. The motor is a 1985 or 1986 Mercury Black Max 150HP V6. It was running great guns when I first bought the boat about a year ago. However, for the last 4 months or so I have not been able to start the outboard. I have spoken to a few people and they suggested cleaning the electrical/battery connections, which I did. Still no good. Have tried changing spark plugs and still no good. Although she was a good runner (when the outboard was running), I had trouble cranking the outboard. It would take about 5-8 cranks before the outboard fired up. Also, some of the wires on the outboard are "bare" meaning the protective insulation/cover has eroded?
Considering the outboard was a great runner, should I have her rebuilt or should I spend money on a "new" outboard? The outboard which I'm considering is a Johnson Ocean Pro 150 2001 model which costs about $6000. If I can have the Mercury rebuilt and running sweet for less than $2000, then I would go the rebuild and spend the savings on new toys for the boat! :)
However, I'm only a new skipper (12 months) so any advice on my outboard situation will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
you probably need to
you probably need to elaborate on why the outboard "wont start"?
Does it not crank? Does it crank but not fire?
Who are the people you have spoken to? Are they outboard mechanics or just people you've bumped into?
While modern EFI 4 strokes are basically car engines in that they just need a laptop with program to diagnose most faults, older 2 stroke outboards are a breed unto themselves and need a bit of lovin and experience to diagnose.
Id suggest taking it to one of the outboard places for a looksee or there seem to be a few Perth mobile mechanics who are recommended here.
However as you havent got any profile details entered here its hard for anyone to recommend a mechanic as you could be anywhere from Kunnunara to Esperance!
Bottom line though is that your outboard even when running well is probably only worth a few grand so a few hundred on a diagnosis will likely tell you if its worth spending any coin on.
Most here I think will tell you that the extra coin on an even used EFI two or 4 stroke is well spent for reliability and general enjoyment depending what you intend using it for.
Personally I gave up on the old carby 2 strokes 15 years ago and couldnt believe the difference when I bought an F115 Yam and now a pair of DF115 Suzukis.
Hope this helps!
EDIT-dont buy a FICHT 2 stroke. No matter how good or bad the various models, you are unlikely to ever sell it and it will be a big negative if trying to sell your boat with it attached.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
MandurahMatt
Posts: 613
Date Joined: 18/09/13
FICHT 2 stroke ?
I've thought bout an Evinrude Etec on my next boat! What's your theory/opinion on comments above ??
Bewdey Fellaz
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
FICHT Evinrudes were the
FICHT Evinrudes were the predecessors of the Etecs and some (not sure about all) models were a failure basically bringing about the downfall of OMC, one of the original outboard manufacturers.
http://my.boatus.com/consumer/200225hpFichtFires.asp
Even if you were to buy one of the models not prone to failure, unfortunately youd be lucky to ever sell your boat with one bolted to it.
The Etecs has completely overcome this and are well proven, though they arent my kettle of fish.
My personal opinion (was asked for!) is that Etecs are pretty much the pinnacle of 2 stroke technology-they arent really in front in terms of price, weight, reliability, resale, longevity etc, holeshot and low maintenance being their biggest advantages.
Not intended to spark a debate at all, they are in a seperate class to any carby 2 stroke. But I have never been able to understand why they are a similar price to a 4 stroke if they have so few moving parts?
Bottom line-EFI 4 stroke or DI 2 stroke-quantum leap over anything with a carby.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
MandurahMatt
Posts: 613
Date Joined: 18/09/13
Thanks for your input :-)
Thanks for your input :-)
Bewdey Fellaz
dodgy
Posts: 4577
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Good advice above. I would
Good advice above. I would also add that I would skip the thought of rebuilding any 2 stroke. They are just never the same after and it's rare to find a happy outcome.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Swompa
Posts: 3880
Date Joined: 14/10/12
I have never had good
I have never had good experiences with rebuilt motors. Not saying that it can't be done properly, I have just never had a successful relationship with one.
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
Thank you for the advice. I
Thank you for the advice. I completely agree that in most cases a "new" outboard will be better than rebuilding an old 2 stroke. However, my budget is only around the $6000 mark hence why I'm looking at the 2001 Johnson 150 V6. Is that a good series of outboard? If not, which would you recommend for around $5000-$6000?
Edit: I'm in Dianella/Morley (Perth)
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
Swompa
Posts: 3880
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Completely understand mate.We
Completely understand mate.
We went from rebuilt Merc Blue Band, to Johnson 40, to 70, to 85. The best motor was the rebuilt Johnson 70, but it still had its moments.
Best thing we did was get the black anchor off the boat. AND got a reliable backup just to get you pointing in the right direction. Mind you, we were diving inshore and didnt have far to go, but a Merc 3.3 took a bit of grunt to push a 17 foot CC into an easterly.
Swanno
thesupervisor
Posts: 1136
Date Joined: 10/06/09
I would spend a few hundred
I would spend a few hundred getting your oldone going sell it for $2000
Then hunt out a nice sh 4 stroke yammi ive seen then go for $8000
But dont rush and get it checked by a good mechanic
Also allow for some prop changes in your budget
getting the bottom line final answer from a bunch of blokes that use false names and put smiley faces at the end of paragraphs is not the best place in the world to get the information you seek.
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Im getting mixed messages
Im getting mixed messages Supervisor
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
piston broke
Posts: 776
Date Joined: 05/11/08
What would
you do Supervisor??
Shane O
Posts: 926
Date Joined: 22/01/10
bit of a
stutter me thinks...
iana
Posts: 652
Date Joined: 21/09/09
Getting b-b-b-b-back to the origional post.
You say the motor won't start. Assuming that the motor turns over, there has been no internal failures etc. Then a motor needs two things to make it go. A healthy spark at the plug and a fuel air mixture of about 15/1 in the cylinder.
If your motor has not kicked over, or not fired even once on a cylinder then it probably is electrical.
If it has done the odd fart then its probably fuel.
I don't know your mechanical ability, but there are some tests and checks that could be done to try and figure if we have an electrical problem or a fuel problem.
The starting point is, is the motor cut-out key/lanyard in place? and are the starting batteries in good condition and fully charged. It can be as simple as the starter taking away all the power from the battery.
So what's your mechanical skills.
What is the state of the battery and
Is the lanyard in place?
Swompa
Posts: 3880
Date Joined: 14/10/12
^ good info
^ good info
iana
Posts: 652
Date Joined: 21/09/09
A matter to clear up!
In your post you talk about "Rebuilding the motor" or buying another, there is no mention of just getting your present motor going, even though you have said that it ran well?
what makes you think it needs a re-build (what ever that is).
Replacing some wiring does not in my books constitute a re-build.
big blue
Posts: 57
Date Joined: 25/03/10
Sounds like the old girl has
Sounds like the old girl has had her day... I dunno but I wouldn't drive a car that was 1985 vintage let alone set out to sea on a boat with a vintage engine , no matter how good the boat is
Don't fall into the trap of putting good money after bad, put your budget to replacement & save yourself a whole world of pain & suffering, as well as expense, bite the bullet & either update the boat or source a later model O/B, four stroke preferably
good advice from Rob H & other posts
P.S.
run far away from anything that was sold by Evinrude/Johnson built or badged as EFI or FICHT around late nineties early two-thousands unless it was four stroke, this stuff sent them broke that's when BRP took them over
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
Thanks again for all the
Thanks again for all the advice. Considering the current outboard is almost 30 years old, I don't think its worthwhile to spend money on getting her to run. I could spend a few $$ to get her to run, and then a few months down the track something else will go wrong etc etc. etc. I don't have the heart to "get her to run" and then sell it off to another fellow boater who might experience problems with the outboard in a few months time, so I'll just sell it cheap to a dealer for parts etc.
My missus has approved another outboard so I will be changing outboards in the very near future.
I would love to buy a 4 stroke but my budget is limited. So considering my budget of about $6000 or so, what are the decent models in the price range? Theres a Johnson OceanPro 150HP V6 2001 model at Muhling Marine going for $6000 fitted. Is that a good motor/price?
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Personally-no.Ocean Pro
Personally-no.
Ocean Pro probably has a similar history to yours. Someone got jacked with it and traded it in. Youd spend $6k for something you might get 2 or 3 back tomorrow.
Carby 2 stroke=horse and plough
EFI=tractor
The best horse still wont beat the worst tractor.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
Roger that! So how about a
Roger that!
So how about a Mercury 150 EFI Offshore 1998 model? Its about $4K
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
I dont know anything about
I dont know anything about the Mercs sorry
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
DTrain
Posts: 486
Date Joined: 10/02/12
The mercury EFI 2 strokes are
The mercury EFI 2 strokes are different to DI 2 strokes. They are not as efficent and will smoke more.
EFI adds the fuel to the air before the air goes through the reed valves. Basically an electronic replacement for the carbys.
Because the 2 stroke has the exhaust port and intake ports open at the same time some of the fresh air intake goes out the exhaust. With carby and EFI this fresh air already has fuel in it so some fuel will go out unburnt.
DI adds the fuel directly to the cylinders after the exhaust port closes so none of it is lost. ETEC, Optimax, HPDI and TLDI engines all use direct injection.
As far as reliability goes I think that the mercury EFI is supposed to be pretty reliable. But I'm not sure that swapping one old engine for another is really going to solve your problems.
If you could save up for a new 4 stroke or DI 2 stroke you would probably be better off in the long run.
If you still have decent compression on your current motor then it might not even cost that much to get it running again in the mean time.
thesupervisor
Posts: 1136
Date Joined: 10/06/09
merc is a black anchor
merc is a black anchor
getting the bottom line final answer from a bunch of blokes that use false names and put smiley faces at the end of paragraphs is not the best place in the world to get the information you seek.
dodgy
Posts: 4577
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Not sure if this is
Not sure if this is something you have considered but Yamaha is running 3.99% finance at the moment. New 150 4 stroke is around $16 grand. Try and sell the reliability and safety aspect to the mrs and fall in love with a brand new motor. That is as long as you are really happy with the hull.
Second hand motors really can go either way but the more people you talk to the more horror stories you will hear.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
Thanks again for all the
Thanks again for all the advice. Have spoken to Shane at Hayway Marine who will inspect my current motor to see whats wrong. If it costs less than $1000 to fix/service, then I'll go with that and enjoy the motor until it dies. As mentioned, the motor was an extremely strong runner when it was going. Could be just a small electrical issue or starter solenoid problem and hopefully nothing major!
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Exactly the best option
Exactly the best option mate. You might be jumping the gun and find theres buggerall wrong
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Vinesh87
Posts: 2751
Date Joined: 02/04/11
Shanes good = No bullshit!
Shanes good = No bullshit!
Grumpysmurf
Posts: 97
Date Joined: 26/02/09
I agree that's the right
I agree that's the right direction. If you old motor was running strong, and then suddenly without reason, won't start, then it is most likely an auxilary item gone wrong (and a rebuild is not necessary). Try and research and learn the mechanics of a motor to eliminate easy things before even sending to a workshop. Start with the VERY basics and work up:
- Is it cranking over at all - if not, then it'd be battery/wire/throttle in neutral/starter
- If cranking well, does it fire up at all - if not, then fuel/plugs/ignition/blocked carby
As for the 1998 2 stroke Mercury 150hp. I have the same motor on my boat. Bought it on the boat at 420 hours, and have now done 490 hours. Good motor! The only issues I've ever had were running out of fuel twice, and a cracked remote oil bottle ($100 item). It is an old fashion 2 stroke and does smell and smoke a tiny bit. And starting it cold does require a bit of throttle.
Haines Signature 610C with Mercury 150 EFI
Ashen
Posts: 1042
Date Joined: 22/03/13
The old mercury is now
The old mercury is now history. Found out that it's actually a 1978 model and all the electrics on the outboard was very corroded so it's not even worth fixing the outboard. The boat is in the progress of having a Johnson OceanPro 150hp fitted! I'll be back on the water within a week. Yeah baby!!
A fish in the hand is worth 10 in the water!