Knife Sharpening

 G'day All

Knives are something we all have and use almost every day. Keeping them sharp is the problem.

Now this is not a problem i have personally as i've been fascinated by knives since i was given my first poicket knife at 4 or 5 years old. My knife collection has grown like my rod collection over the years. My knife sharpening skills have kept pace with technology and i'm now using a good quality diamond stone to keep a nice edge on all my knives. 

I have however been out on many a mates boat, picked up the nearest knife to cut a fillet of wrasse, and ended up with something that looks like it was hacked off with a chainsaw. And basically it has been. 

I spent the morning today looking for a quality honing steel and stumbled across this site that explains knife sharpening.  For those guys that wonder how a knife magically gets sharp this is gold. 

I do have to warn you that it is fairly long and in depth but if you do want to get your knives sharp then it is a good read.

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

If anybody has a prefered Honing steel brand they would recommend please let me know.

Merv

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carnarvonite's picture

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Dick

Fri, 2015-07-03 16:55

If you can get hold of an F Dick 2nd cut steel you won't get one better IMO. I bought mine about 45 years ago when I was a slaughterman and they were hard to get even then, still have it now and its still going strong. Master butchers is the place to go for steels and quality knives.

edit. For knives have a look at Victrinox, Dexter Russells, Swibo in stainless or Green River in black steel.All are quality and have a good range and sizes

Madmerv's picture

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Thanks

Sat, 2015-07-04 06:31

 Actually Carnarvonite all my kitchen knives are F.Dick that i got when i was 18. The steel i'm replacing is also a F.Dick. I'm not replacing the steel because it is bad i'm just upgrading to a ceramic one for my better quality knives. 

Because the steel quality is better, and i'm assuming harder, i have noticed over the years very small chips in the cutting edge. After sharpening on on a stone and getting the edge just right i then ran it lightly over the steel because that was what i suspected was causing the chips. It looked like that was the culprit. These chips i'm talking about are micro small but after steeling for a couple of weeks, with light use of the knife, i can notice them on the cutting edge. This dosent happen with my F.Dicks or Swibo fishing knife and i suspect it is because of the hight stainless content.

 

Ps: Read one of my other replies down the page. You may cry.

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sea-kem's picture

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 I give mine a sharpen with a

Fri, 2015-07-03 16:56

 I give mine a sharpen with a stone once a year and touch them up with the steel when filleting. I have Swibo's and Dexter Russell's , great knives.

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crano's picture

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 Thanks for putting up the

Fri, 2015-07-03 16:58

 Thanks for putting up the lnk.Very informative.

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 A million years ago , I

Fri, 2015-07-03 17:17

 A million years ago , I worked as a knifehand at Robbs Jetty and every morning the boners and slicers would be sharpening their knives absolutely unreal how sharp some of these boys could get their knives like razor blades shaving the hair off their arms .

 The ole school boys used to make there own steels out of screwdrivers or customise existing steels by sanding /polishing them smooth and then pickle them in vinegar if memory serves me correctly to just to pit them up a bit . I don’t know the exact process or reasons but they never used the common grooved steels that most people use . 
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carnarvonite's picture

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Making steels

Fri, 2015-07-03 20:50

Rat tail files were the best if making your own.
Use an old sharpening stone to grind the riflings off the file till smooth then find a bottle or tall tube to suspend the file in over about an inch of strong vinegar, but don't immerse any of it in the liquid. Leave it for about a week till the fumes off the vinegar have pitted the file then add a handle and haft so you don't cut your fingers off and its ready to use.
When slaughtering, once the knife would only just shave your arm it was time to sharpen it again. Siding knives would last about 4-5 weeks and by then you would have already started another new knife. You would have anywhere up to 5-6 knives on the go at any one time.

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Steels

Sat, 2015-07-04 06:40

 I've heard of something simmilar to the vinegar technique.

The steel i'm currently using has some grooves in it and if i can find the correct way to do it, i will sand it smooth.

The way i heard was use actual acid, perhaps vinegar if it is strong enough, to micro pit the steel. I will really have to have some correct instructions before i start as the honing steel is a good quality one and i would hate to f--- it up.

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carnarvonite's picture

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Don't do it

Sat, 2015-07-04 07:59

Don't stuff up a good steel by smoothing it off then pitting it. It is still good as it is, it doesn't need to be coarse to put the edge back on your knife.
The trick using the steel is to always have the knife at the same angle each time you steel it otherwise you are wasting your time and not polishing the actual edge.

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I get you

Sat, 2015-07-04 09:52

 Thought that might freak you out a bit. 

I was actually keeping the discussion a bit light as not many people are as obssesive about sharp knives as some of us can be.

The problem with the steel is not that it was to smooth from use, as it is 20 years old, but that it is to coarse for my high end knives. I was looking at a super fine ceramic to use on them. Like you said the F.Dick steels are top grade and i will still be using it in 20 more years.

I was trained on how to use a steel by an old chef and worked in many 5 star hotels where i questioned the chefs on their technique. I dont use the steel to sharpen, just to polish the edge as you said. The steel as it is, is just to aggressive for a hardened blade. 

Also i have done some more reading on knifeforums.com and it looks like the problem i'm getting is from something called Work hardening. That is where the edge is bent over during use and then straightened with the steel, bent, straightened etc. That tempers the steel to slightly harder than the surrounding steel and with an aggressive steel, instead of rolling the tip back straight, it will roll straight until it reaches the hardened bit and snap it off. You have to realize this is a micro piece and not a chunk of blade. Pro meat workers will see this when using a harder blade but generally they are using a softer steel and have stoned the tempered edge off before they get the micro chip problem. As i'm only domestically using my knives the work hardening has built up over years and i'm seeing it now. A smoother steel will help.

As to the acid/vinegar pitting of steels, the experts recommend using Iodine as there is a finer pit formed. That can be used on the bastard file as you said but must be buffed with steel wool. Just put it on and leave for 24 hours, wash off and buff.

If i do go with smoothing my steel and pitting i will let you know how it turns out but trust me when i say i do respect my gear.

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carnarvonite's picture

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Stone

Sat, 2015-07-04 12:09

When the edge gets to that stage its time to put it on a stone and take it down till all the old edge is completely gone. That is why slaughts and boners sharpen their knives 2-3 times a day, more if you have dirty or long wool sheep.

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my mate is a butcher

Fri, 2015-07-03 19:51

my pommy mate used to come down from Darwin once a year for a diving trip with me at onslow , he used to get frustrated watching me fillet our catch , in the end he would bellow " leave the fooking fish I will fillet them you barstard" he could do 4 fish in the time I did one , he was a butcher by trade , got him every year and he never twigged i was doing it on purpose so I could sit back and have a beer while he did the filleting

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Steel

Fri, 2015-07-03 20:49

From my knowledge,the best "steels are actually ceramic and not steel"The ceramic steel just puts the edge back on the knife.

But be prepared to part with some dollars.

Old shity knife for Bait

Good Swibo etc for filliting 

Heavy thick knife for through the bone stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WWmvNPtJfs

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Fri, 2015-07-03 20:59

 I have 2 ceramic knives, best I've ever used. 

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Madmerv's picture

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Ceramic

Sat, 2015-07-04 06:46

 I've heard the ceramics are good Dale. Do you use them on the boat?  Can they handle a bit of abuse without chiping? 

 

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Dale's picture

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Sat, 2015-07-04 09:55

 Howdy Merv, never took them out in the boat. Just used them at home for filleting etc. Swibo's in the boat.

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That's a ripper post Merv,

Fri, 2015-07-03 21:46

That's a ripper post Merv, thanks for putting it up.

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i do use a stone

Fri, 2015-07-03 22:28

I use a stone and regular steel for good results , I did have a sharpening tool that griped the knife blade and you could hone it with the different stones , it worked well

Madmerv's picture

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Sharpening tools

Sat, 2015-07-04 06:55

 I've tried the sharpening tools in the past. I found them great for a short blade like a pocket knife or skinning knife as you only had to clamp them once. When you have a longer blade like a filleting knife or kitchen knife you have to move the clamp to get the whole blade properly. The first sharpen seemed to work well but when you go to do it again it is almost impossible to get the clamp in the same place you had it months before. That changed the angle a bit and made it harder, and longer, to sharpen again.

For some reason i also found the edge not lasting as long after using the tool. That may have just been in my head but i went back to just using a stone anyway.

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sandbar's picture

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Nirey then hone

Sat, 2015-07-04 09:50

is what I'm running these days. I don't have the time during my RNR to sharpen knives as I would prefer so I bought a Nirey Knife Sharpener (was a post on this a while ago). Excellent to bring back the edge and then it gets packed away and I maintain the edge with a steel. Very effective and convenient but I can see how easily you could grind a knife away to non-existent.

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 Use a diamond steel to keep

Sat, 2015-07-04 15:40

 Use a diamond steel to keep sharp... gets very sharp with that

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carnarvonite's picture

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Wear

Sat, 2015-07-04 17:13

Diamond steels are great for giving you a sharp knife for a short time as they soon wear great shoulders on the knife requiring 3 times as long on the stone to grind them off.

Callum24's picture

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 Great thread boys i love my

Sat, 2015-07-04 17:18

 Great thread boys i love my knives raser sharp but havent master the art yet, this helps alot though, I got my first swibo bout a year back and will always spend the money on a quality knife from hear on in cheers for the tips I lernt alot from this.  

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Dale's picture

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Hacksaw blade.

Sat, 2015-07-04 17:28

 I've made probably the sharpest knife out of the large reciprocal mechanical hacksaw blades. Get awesomely sharp and retain an edge for ages.

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Madmerv's picture

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Making knives

Sun, 2015-07-05 09:05

 Have used the mechanical hacksaw blades many times in the past to make sack cutting blades. Like you said they hold an edge right up till somebody else leaves it in the pile of empty sacks and it is thrown out..

Then the companys introduced nanny rules, no self made tools, no blades other than safety blades etc and the art of making knives left my industry.. :(

When i was in Montana, USA, i went to a knife maker to get a silver dollar put in the hilt of a skinning knife with a deer bone handle. The steel he used was the leaf spring of a specific make, model, year etc of truck (ute). He said it was the best for quality of steel in a skinner. If it even looks damp the bloody thing rusts but is a quality knife.

Merv

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carnarvonite's picture

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Wiltshire

Sat, 2015-07-04 17:42

Was working at Borthwicks abs in Albany many years ago and a rep gave us each a Wiltshire siding knife to try and let them know what we thought of them. Great edge but too brittle, mine lasted about 20 minutes and snapped when cutting a back trotter off a sheep, others broke big chunks out of the blade doing the same thing.
So no doubt the report back wasn't good, never saw the same size Wiltshire knife for sale anywhere again.

Have had mates come up and ask to sharpen their "expensive" knives for them only to find they are as soft as a hot turd and useless as far as a knife goes but look good on a wall display.

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Horses for courses

Sun, 2015-07-05 09:58

 A lot of people look at a knife and think they can use it for everything.  Like cars, an AWD SUV is not a good road handling car, is not a good 4 WD, Is not a sports car, Is not a ute. You can however drive on the road, on dewy grass, speed and carry a sack of cement in it.

The "expensive" knife sets most people get are, as you say, very Pretty. Full steel handles or nice looking wood with a pretty pattern. They are not the softer steel needed for Boning, harder steel for Sushi, flexible steel for filleting etc.  For somebody who dosent care about their knives the "expensive" ones are just a waste of money and for others the "expensive set" is the cost of just 1 knife.

I would bet those same mates who got their knives sharpened will be chatting to you a year later and saying how their knives are getting dull again. No touch up's on a steel or stone for the whole year.

Now after this coming Thurs night i will be getting a Merc town car, 200 series 4x4, BMW M5 and why the hell would i be carrying cement...Lol

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You will laugh at this.

Thu, 2015-07-23 17:09

 Ever come across a japanese cheapy called a Ballard? Don't know if you can even get them any more. Way back, we liked them on the older crayboats because you could use a hammer on them to cut jarrah batten and they would never break. (don't try that with a Swibo, seen it done with the inevitable results.) Every crayboat had a Ballard or two as deck knives. I still have one with a 210mm blade, orange handle, easily 30 yo, and it lives in the top of my tackle box in its original sheath as my filleting knife. Used only for that, sharpened with a round axe stone and water. You'll probably never shave with it but the edge is good enough for an easy fillet on anything. I see some regard here for Swibos--i've never considered them very good, just never get a good edge on them. Still have one living in a side pocket as a general deck knife. The Dexter Russells and Sani-sharps we used to get from the Co-op were good, still have some.

hezzy's picture

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being in the game where you

Thu, 2015-07-23 21:22

being in the game where you need sharp knives , I have a wiltshire steel mild coarse I got it as an apprentice 36 years ago ,its pretty smooth now , my Hungarian boss made me buy it for work along with a set of whustoff knives ,
beautiful knives that stay sharp and last

I also have swibos and a green river , bought the green river after father inlaw frank gave me a look at his in action ,

I keep my work knives in a wooden block , and steel them often , stone them less

hate working with blunt knives , dam dangerous too ,

have seen some beaut injurys inflicted at work with the blade as well lol

hezzy

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carnarvonite's picture

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Injuries

Fri, 2015-07-24 05:50

Same here, seen some that make you think about what trade you picked for yourself.
A few that I won't ever forget was one at Anchorage abattoirs, bloke cutting the sheep's throats slipped and cut himself from the inside of his right knee across the top of his thigh up to near where his hip bone is, straight through being about 3 inches at the deepest point. Another at Midland abattoirs, they used small choppers and a round rubber mallet to cut through the briskets of the sheep as they were hanging on the chain rail. With them going passed at about 8-9 a minute there would be two blokes going flat out to keep up, one bloke gets a bit behind so the other swings round to do a couple for him to allow him to catch up, he was a lefty and the slow one is a right hander, puts his arm holding the chopper out and bang, straight through the flesh and bone with just the skin on the back of his arm holding it together, tourniquet on and off to hospital. Worked there for another 9 months and never saw him again.

For my collection of scars, I've had about 30 stitches in both hands and one knee from working in abs and butcher shops Thoroughly agree with Hezzy, its hard work and dangerous to use a knife that isn't less than 90% IMO sharp and my 90% means that if you can't shave your arm with it before you put it on the steel it is blunt.

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Agree with the sharpness

Fri, 2015-07-24 10:11

I always said in the abattoirs a blunt knife is a dangerous knife and I still say it to my wife. Harder for the dr,s to stitch up aswell. I worked at fletchers sth of mt barker then later for steggles. I had the record for boning a 20kg box of chook, that was due to the quality and sharpness of my knives, dexters.

In the kitchen have a Zhen, Japanese steel Damascus cooks knife. Had it 2 1/2 years and seen the stone once. Other than that a couple of gentle slides on the steel.

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CERAMIC STEEL

Fri, 2015-07-24 11:17