My 5 Cents
My thoughts, and ideas on recent shark attacks
The usual pages and news items debating the merits of shark culls, drum lines, tagging to make the water safer for the end user who has been the victim of most recent attacks, that is divers and surfers.
Well I propose that as with most safety issues relating to public health and safety that a mandatory preventative measure be put in place.
Now if you own a car there are numerous safety products installed in the vehicle, making driving safer and crash survive ab...ility higher. Governments have made it mandatory(law) to wear seatbelts, this is for our own safety, some people still choose not to. That is their risk and a fine or demerit points are deterrents.
If you ride a bicycle wearing helmets are mandatory, and some older generations remember when this wasn't the case. The effectiveness of a helmet to prevent sever head injury can be debated but still it's law.
Boat users have to add considerable costs to their activity as mandated by law, an EPIRB, a marine radio, flares and life jackets. These devices have saved many lives.
I propose that governments as in the cases stated above mandate end users of high risk water activities, ie surfing and diving have attached and in use a shark shield device.
Now the debate on their effectiveness can go on and on, but making the end user responsible for their own safety and hopefully preventing serous injury or death has again as stated above been the norm.
There is no guarantee that reducing shark numbers will prevent an attack. Who's to say which shark will attack where.
These devices do work. And will save lives, along with safety measure such as tagging and shark patrols. It may just be the difference for a surfer or diver to get out of the water upon sighting a threat, then the beach is closed, the shark threat determined and further action taken as requiredLike to know your thoughts
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
Yeah right
It should be mandatory that every human that walks out the dront door should be wearing a bee suit, those little fuckers are just waiting to kill you. Dont forget Mosquitos, everyone has to sleep under a mozzy net or get fined big bucks. Yeah, lets make the government control us so we dont get hurt, great thinking lawndered
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
Some people
sime people can't think for themselves Fathom. And that is the problem in this state. Everyone wants the government to fix the issue now. The solution is to put the fix onto the users, make them responsible for their own safety. That was the message in my spiel above
Jackfrost80
Posts: 8050
Date Joined: 07/05/12
Ok so let's get rid of all
Ok so let's get rid of all Australian standards and make the user responsible for the safety of the products they are buying. Road rules, yeah let's chuck them all out the window.
Don't even get me started on those pesky child abuse laws, bloody government holding our kid's hands when they should be responsible for their own safety...
The point is that ocean users know and accept that there is a risk involved in the activities which for most of us growing up was almost zero although we knew it was always there. The risk is now greater than it's ever been in written history in WA and all we are asking for is for the current risk to reflect those levels at which we were happy to take the risk.
Officially off the Pies bandwagon
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
Save your money
Buy yourself some cotton wool instead.
Silver Fox
Posts: 1097
Date Joined: 19/06/14
No way
Nothing on this planet will stop a Great White in full flight... How about basting ourselves in garlic n spices before we enter the water... Make yourself taste nice for em. Pretty sure that every shark that has taken a chunk out of a human has spat it out and thought that it didn't taste like seal...
My wife understands why I clean my rods n reels in the shower....
Mulie
Posts: 546
Date Joined: 20/02/11
Wed like to think that, but
Wed like to think that, but there are documented cases in WA, let alone the rest of the world where gw's have returned to finish a meal of human, having multiple bites and ingesting whole corpses. There have also been studies on learned behaviour in sharks and unfortunately they are more than capable of learning to adapt to a new food source, which leaves the big white elephant in the room, cage diving with gw's. This practise directly alters the natural fear of boats that the globally transient population of gw's by attracting them and identifying boats and associating people in the water with a food source. Our world renowned Oceans Institute supplies all of their staff with shark shields. I tend to side with their position that you are safer with a shark shield, rather than without.
Mulie
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Bloody good post lawndered
Oh more regulations and cost for something that should be free. My choice to take the risks as I see them and protect myself against the threat as I deem necessary.
I have now taken to wearing an inflatable life jacket when out in my boat.
It's my choice (at the moment at least).
However as lawndered has stated, boaties pay very heavy costs for life saving equipment (that may say life) and may not as the recent tragedy at Coral Bay has shown. All reports indicate that these gentlemen had all the required safety equipment but for what ever reason it didn't save them. A damn shame.
Looking at this governments "modus operandi" it would not surprise me to see something like what lawndered has outlined come into being.
rob90
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 06/02/13
New forum name..........
New forum name.......... sharkwreked!
Hi my name is rob............. and I'm a........... fishaholic
buschy
Posts: 626
Date Joined: 27/11/09
Good post
It's a reasonable call - I agree with making people accountable for their own safety rather than expecting the Government to provide the solution. It's probably difficult to establish a practical or effective solution when it comes to sharks though. I still think the best investment that can be made in the issue is to prop the commercial shark fishing industry back up.
The drum line trial cost around $1.3M. Whatever solution they are going to put in place is going to cost one hell of a lot more and that cost will be shared by all taxpayers - regardless of whether they use the water. That's one argument for shifting the cost onto the individuals themselves. Better yet, invest that money into the commercial fishing industry to provide a sustainable solution that also creates jobs.
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
That's the point
my point exactly Buschy.
The people that surf and five the oceans probably have more respect and admiration for the sea and all living things in it. But yes the last ten years something has changed but even if we crank up the catch which I don't mind at all, but keep in mind the whole system, fishery, metro has improved quite dramatically the last seven years or so. There was the argument that because if management and fish populations improving the predators where coming closer inshore.
It's the same old story with nature, we try and manage either by introducing pests or disease, biological controls whatever and don't see the side effects.
greater population, more people on the water.
little johnny
Posts: 5330
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Not worth 5 cents
Sounds like something I read on weather site few days back. Pretty sure diver few years back ( abalone)had 3 active shark shields on and around him ?? Bang gone. Why do you think makos and whites like attacking motors.?? I wear one while cray diving on the hope it does turn one. They are not proven . Read instructions. :):) no dig .
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
5 more cents
i never said they where proven but that the device can possibly defer an attack giving time to react.
And nothing is foolproof..
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
"These devices do work" and
"These devices do work" and then "I never said they were proven" and "nothing is foolproof".
You might want to check the consistency of the statements you have made in this thread before continuing...
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
They do work
nuff said, hah
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
"All the products we came
"All the products we came across clearly state there's no guarantee they'll prevent a shark attack. One manufacturer even likened their product to a seat belt, saying that while seat belts reduce the risk of a fatality in an accident, they don't completely eliminate it.
This may be true, but seat belts have to comply with a standard to ensure they work as intended, giving the user confidence in the protection they afford. With personal shark deterrents, very little independent testing has been done, making it hard for consumers to judge if they truly work or not.
"The ability to advertise a device as repelling sharks without having performed adequate testing can be misleading," says Dr Huveneers.
"It's important the general public is properly informed about the devices they are purchasing to ensure they make informed decisions about the potential risks."
Huveneers also warns that people using these devices should know their limitations, even if they've been shown to work at least some of the time.
"There's a danger with personal deterrents that increased perception of safety may lead to the users taking more risk than they normally would."
https://www.choice.com.au/health-and-body/diet-and-fitness/surfing-and-snowboarding/articles/shark-repellents-review
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
Before taking the time to
Before taking the time to read that article Lawndered I think your probably better to understand this..
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
I was aware
I was aware of the info on the shark shield, wrong choice of word "proven" and are safe. I was sitting in my car typing on mobile when writing. What I'm trying to say by bringing up other after devices is that some times these devices are installed or made mandatory simply because the can possibly save lives. I'm getting at the possibility that the device may give users time to get out. If the shark is resident large and a threat then perhaps the drum lines or other methods apply.
put thread on here to get the response from people who may use or not use a shark shield
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
You put this on here in
You put this on here in an attempt to be the percipient who helps solve the shark issue.
However the claims you have made have in support of your idea have been proven to be demonstrably false and as such your suggestion actually hinders the worthwhile debate taking place regarding shark safety.
Please take the time to properly inform yourself of the issues before commenting and refrain from making statements such as "some people cant think" as per above when you yourself are clearly guilty of doing exactly that by having not availed yourself of information that is broadly publicly available. Failure to do so might have people accusing you of being an idiot.
The descent into ad hominim personal attacks with your comment to Little Johny below does not help your credibility either.
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
think he's put this on here
think he's put this on here (like everyone else) to help get a debate going...and going it is.... whether ppl think he has a point or not.
as for "Please take the time to properly inform yourself of the issues before commenting " ????? are you some sort of admin ? my bet is no. considering your contribution to this site is all of 24 posts in 5 years.
everyone's entitled to an opinion.
Edit:"descent into ad hominim" haha looks like you've fallen into the same trap yourself.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Your last statement "there's a danger...)
The last statement you have made in your post "all the products we came".
Is relevant to just about everything that has been made to try and protect the human race from it's self. Sadly none have been 100% effective.
Why because nothing can prevent a fool or fool hardy person from themselves. We have cars with multiple air bags which do the best they can to protect a person from fatal collision if involved in a crash, there are reserve parachutes for those that choose to jump out of perfectly good aircraft and tempt fait by coming down to earth trusting their lives on a few square metres of silk, and if the main chute fails well we have an emergency one. People still die sky diving.
"lead users to taking more risks than they normally would".
An aberration of human nature, we can invent every possible safety device that our creative minds will allow us, sadly some people will do things that are utterly confusing and defy "common sense" as perceived by the majority of the human race.
What can be done about it,...zip learn to live with it.
little johnny
Posts: 5330
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Good to see fisheries
Still setting rigs where lady was taken.
Walfootrot
Posts: 1386
Date Joined: 23/07/12
Yep
Yep
More drum lines, kill the bloody sharks!
rigpig
Posts: 507
Date Joined: 21/11/12
100% agree
If Fisheries need a hand deploying them i will gladly load my boat up and drop some around Cockburn and Warnbro Sounds..
z00m
Posts: 1086
Date Joined: 10/05/14
Post
Sorry, but were you afraid no-one would respond to your opinion if you posted it in the other threads for the same topic? Others have mentioned the same things in the other threads so it isn't a revelation.
Honestly, how many people did ice, alchohol and cars kill this week? Hold on, maybe I need my own thread.
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
I hate to rain on the idea of
I hate to rain on the idea of using commercial shark netters to reduce the threat of GWs but its a furphy to think it will
fact is there has been a strong commercial netting/fishing fleet already in places along our coast where we have still had attacks by sharks , gracetown has had 3, bunker bay 1 and busso 1 ,
there are shark netters working that area still now and it hasn't reduced the risk
simply openingup the metro area to shark netters will just allow them to catch heaps of smaller sharks & demersals ... the mesh size they use isn't conducive to catching big sharks ,
all they will do is kill the pig on the last 8 years of re growth in that area of demersals like snapper, dhuies and mulloway
big sharks wont be reduced exactly as they have not been able to remove or reduce them in the areas they fish now
what will happen is afew commercials will make good coin and the public will all be fed the feel good line that ''something ''is being done so they can all feel safer
id like to ask these supposed expert shark netters who want to fish it again commercially
why they think there proposal to re open the metro fishery will reduce the numbers of attacks , when they haven't been able to do it anywhere else ??
there needs to be a proper targeted strategy to actually remove or reduce big great whites over 3 metres
shark netting commercially isn't it
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
Geespot
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 18/08/13
Thoughts
Exactly my thoughts hezzy
Jackfrost80
Posts: 8050
Date Joined: 07/05/12
My 5 cents. Great White
My 5 cents. Great White fishing = almost no deaths. Great White protection = more than yearly deaths...
Officially off the Pies bandwagon
little johnny
Posts: 5330
Date Joined: 04/12/11
Zoom and lawndred
Quote proven they work( really) I have 4 I will let you both jump in with them and watch.( with white) There proven . They are only a deterrent not proven. I use them in hope. I don't rely on them. Nothing is proven. As far as replies zoom zoomy I don't give flying f--k.:):) boo hoo
z00m
Posts: 1086
Date Joined: 10/05/14
LJ
My reply was directed to the original poster, not to you. boo hoo :):)
I don't swim with the sharks - they would die of cholesterol poisoning
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
Little Johnny
Thats it mate abuse everyone from your golden throne, Johnny knows best.
little johnny
Posts: 5330
Date Joined: 04/12/11
:);)
No gold bud. Just lots of obvervations of many years on water. Listening to local pros . Haven't got throne yet but working on it .. Electric and magnetic fields attract sharks. PROVEN.fact. Shark sheild helps prevent attack . Mad not to use one , but not proven.
Gav475
Posts: 393
Date Joined: 16/11/11
license
why not make us get a license to go surfing so it can be policed. Add it to the license I need to drive my car, ride by motor bike, drive my boat, fish from my boat , own my boat , own a trailer for my boat, fish for rock lobster, fish for marron, use a throw net, hold an epirb life jackets flares so I can drive my boat and they are even wanting me to get one to ride my push bike to work, really.
The bigger picture is that our fishery is out of balance and needs intervention to restore it. The fatal attacks are a symptom of the imbalance. You need to fix the cause not the symptoms. A reinstated sustainable shark fishey seems a logical solution which makes use of a geniune resource.
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
Maybe
maybe the fishery is in balance that's why this is happening
Paj man
Posts: 359
Date Joined: 16/09/12
I can understand where you're
I can understand where you're coming from but think about how many surfboards are out there which are only used a few times a year. I can't imagine these people will be too impressed with coughing up extra coin so they can enjoy their occasional leisure activity. Not going to happen.
aka Nick
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
I'm guessing there was an
I'm guessing there was an element of sarcasm in Gav's comment above... ;)
Paj man
Posts: 359
Date Joined: 16/09/12
Response to the OP
Not gav's
aka Nick
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
A smart man
yes was an element if sarcasm. But just also putting out there that these other things ev bike helmets, boat safety etc. we're not popular when introduced.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
My 5 cents worth
My 5 cents worth is that this is being blown out of all proportion by the media frenzy, every time you turn the radio or tv on its right in your face.
Culling white pointers isn't going to change one little thing as they are migratory and are usually in any area at one time for a matter of days before moving on.
Like anything in life its a risk to walk outside without getting stung by a bee, run over, catch the flu, have a stroke and so on so we go about or business as usual with a few precautions, seatbelts, helmets [which I hate], vitamin C, safety boots and shark shields if you want to go in the water.
If you don't like it then lock yourself up tight in your dunny, hire a food taster so you don't get poisoned, air purifiers and the list goes on
Marineboy
Posts: 839
Date Joined: 14/03/14
Well said
well said carnarvonite, I'm totally with you, killing 20 or 30 great whites a year ain't gonna fix the problem there will still be attacks and deaths.
My spots are so secret even the fish don't know about them !
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
Agree
Agree, and I don't follow the media, just thought this is a good place for this type of discussion .
In the end I guess I was thinking of some way to help people feel safe
Madmerv
Posts: 672
Date Joined: 24/01/15
Shark Fishery
Read the forums and have one question.
Great Whites ar a protected species in Australia. If a rec fisherman catches one he has to release it unharmed. Do commercial fisherman have the right to kill them or do they also have to release it unharmed if possible?
How does re-introducing commercial shark fishing reduce the number of GW's?
Sometimes when the water is quiet, you can hear the fish laughing at you !
Jackfrost80
Posts: 8050
Date Joined: 07/05/12
I heard the bloke on 6pr last
I heard the bloke on 6pr last week that was flagging the idea and it was the clumsiest interview I've ever heard. When Gary kept coming back to the GWs he just bumbled around saying it might help if they bycatch and kill a few small ones to prevent them from growing into big ones. The guys came across as a moron and was only interested in his own commercial interests in catching gummys and bronzies etc and using the GW debate as a chance to get a leg into the fishery.
Officially off the Pies bandwagon
hezzy
Posts: 1519
Date Joined: 27/11/09
[The guys came across as a
[The guys came across as a moron and was only interested in his own commercial interests in catching gummys and bronzies etc and using the GW debate as a chance to get a leg into the fishery.]
nailed it jack
that is exactly why they want to push it
the general publics fear & social media frenzy will be aligned with a feel good re opening of the commercial shark fishery in the mtro that wont actually stop bugger all attacks
outside of the metro we have had shark attacks and fatalitys , so it is pure BS for these guys to say they can reduce them by opening up the metro again
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
chris raff
Posts: 3257
Date Joined: 09/02/10
Two separate issues and they
Two separate issues and they will have to be targeted differently is my presumption
“Intelligence is like a four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places.”
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
A good post be it a good idea
A good post be it a good idea or not. Good on you for trying to put something forward in a positive way.
For me personally.... wouldn't like to see shark shields become mandatory. I grew up surfing Scabs and when I was 14 years old no way could I afford one or my parents for me for that matter. (....and ....shark shields weren't around when I was 14.....haha)
Believe there is some confusion around the word proven, pretty sure they are "proven" to work.....put them on 10000 ppl in a shark infested water and they generally work. may not save everyone but proven to save some lives.
just like a seatbelt is "proven" to work. not going to save you if you have a head on with a semi at 110kmpm but all the same seatbelts are proven to save lives.
Edit: oh and got to love the people who say flat out they are not worth s*^T and attract sharks ....but then ....wear one when diving ????
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
And finally
And yes the idea dies appeal to people who see it for what it is. Just an idea, and you got the point of it nicely.
thank you
bradz
Posts: 693
Date Joined: 29/10/07
Mandatory...why
Ive maintained this stance for years. The only things from a safety aspect that should be legislated or mandatory are things that affect the safety and wellbeing of others.
IE. If you want to swim...the risk is yours.
If you want to speed or drink and drive...you risk others lives. Legislate
If you want to ride a bike...you risk head injury. Its up to you if you want to wear a helmet.
If you want to go boating but your boat sinks...others risk their lives to search for you. Legislate epirbs.
The difference between car crash deaths (huge numbers) and shark attacks (small numbers) is the same as likening deaths in worldwide mining accidents (huge) to terrorist attacks (relatively small). Its not the number of deaths...its the manner in which the death occurs and the mental impact/fear associated.
Still not sure of the solution or indeed if there is one.
I did then the best that I knew how. When I knew better, I did better.
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
I don't disagree
i dint disagree with what your saying. But it seems the problem we have in this state is instead of the individual taking responsibility for their and others saftey all everyone does is ask the government what will they do.
bradz
Posts: 693
Date Joined: 29/10/07
Responsibility
Yep, because as a society (I personally blame the 1990's for this) we stopped taking respsonsibility for everything.
Little Johnny or Mary fails school...blame the teacher.
Little David is a bully...he wasnt breast fed long enough.
Stewy lost his job for stealing from the till...no camera proof so suddenly its unfair dismissal.
Little Mark beats up Toby...sit on the quiet step for some thinking time.
Its unfair that my child came 7th in the race...give every damn kid a medal for participating.
Steve was runner up....NO, HE LOST.
All bullshit.
We spend so much time patting people on the back for mediocrity and holding peoples hands through the most trivial of adversities that most people have lost any form of resilience, resistance or the ability to stand tall and take respsonsibility for their lives. That should be the new "3R's...Resilience, Resistance and Responsibility.
Back on track. We as parents are the first and only line we have to stop this pathetic need for Government hand holding. When we do that then society will start to come back to "normal".
I did then the best that I knew how. When I knew better, I did better.
Subaquatic
Posts: 515
Date Joined: 23/04/11
Easy there champ, reward for
Easy there champ, reward for mediocrity is my only hope in life.....
Jackfrost80
Posts: 8050
Date Joined: 07/05/12
I hear that's going to be
I hear that's going to be Freo's 2017 marketing slogan
Officially off the Pies bandwagon
Paj man
Posts: 359
Date Joined: 16/09/12
Hey hey!
Don't take it out on the 90's - the naughties are when all this stuff happened!
aka Nick
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Well said Bradz..and oh so true
Well said and sadly it is all true.
MT
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 19/08/11
Concur
A sensible approach.
duncan61
Posts: 375
Date Joined: 21/11/14
dunning-kruger
I can really identify with the dunning-kruger effect and have been guilty more times than I care to share.I understand what Lawndered was inferring too but cannot agree on more regulation.Many things are good and make sense like boat safety equipment and release weights.hats for school children in summer.Short of issuing shark shields at the beach how could it be policed and if I was from Europe here on holiday for a week and was told I have to have this on or I may be torn limb from limb by a 2000lb fish I would fuck off back to Bali
just do it.
Subaquatic
Posts: 515
Date Joined: 23/04/11
Sharkshields......I once saw
Sharkshields......I once saw a bloke nearly killed because he was wearing a sharkshield, but never once have I seen a bloke saved by wearing one.......work that one out! ;-)
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Shark Shields
Was assisting water police divers recover 3 bodies from when a boat crashed into the side of a 90metre barge off Carnarvon about 5 years back, the two divers knew there was 3 big tigers swimming around the wreck 30 feet below as the helicopter had informed us before we started the attempt.
The sharks kept a wide distance as each of the bodies was brought to the surface and as the divers stated they wouldn't have gone in without them and had complete confidence in using them in that situation
Subaquatic
Posts: 515
Date Joined: 23/04/11
'Twas tongue in cheek.....I
'Twas tongue in cheek.....I have no idea if they work or not.
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
Brave
hats off to them
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
My shark shield
I was given one of the first Shark sheilds in WA as part of a sponsorship deal, couldn't wait to test it out. Took the tinny out towards big island at the Abrolhos late one arvo and burleyed up, jumped over with the camera and started filming stuff, then....started to get buzzed by a few Bronzies, hmmmm I thought, does this thing work, is it on?
Swam back to the tinny which was slowly sinking and checked that everything was in order. Checked all connections flicked it off and on and off then grabbed the areal thingamajig and flicked it back on.....holy fuck, it was like a defibrillator in reverse.... it stopped my heart, I saw an angel, luckily I was standing in 5 inches of water or I would have burn marks on the soles of my feet where the 1000000 volts went to ground
I threw that thing in the cupboard and it has not seen the light of day since that one and only time I "used" it
little johnny
Posts: 5330
Date Joined: 04/12/11
I found they
Work on bronzies for first three pinks. One on float 1 on boat. Then they come in and take everything( fish) after that. As if they get use to it. Whites unsure . But if it turns one all good gives you chance in seeing it ? ( diving wise) surfing ,body boards more at risk . That one would be hard solution. Must admit I turn mine off when on bottom If surgey . Prob bad move . They give you big whack .
lawndered
Posts: 170
Date Joined: 27/10/11
Yep
yep that's the thing. It may initially turn the threat away but I'm saying if all things are equal that that may have saved a life, time to get out of the water.
spinksy
Posts: 266
Date Joined: 06/10/10
trail mine down
the side of one of my fins with cable ties. Never zaps me. And while nothing will save you from white in attack mode I think they will deter if whitey comes for bump test. They work on bronzies have seen that. state gov did some testing and said they are the best deterent on the market and work most times and they were using baits. Now for 600 bucks not much for piece of mind and a bit more protection.