Top effort fellas! Must have been a magic arvo/evening on the water, regardless of the conditions. Guess cancelling the Mindarie Invitational was a blessing in disguise for you guys. Once again, well done on a sizzling session!! :)

Awesome effort guys! Wish I was there :)

Gully

not needing to worry about size there. looks like you bumped into a big school where all the fish were roughly the same size?

lumps all around a single area, or really spread out stephen?

Pump iron to drop iron!

Had to stay close in due to the wind. Did it tough for the first few hours then all the fish caught in about 3hrs. Only fished 2 lumps. First lump no good then after about 30min of burley on the second lump fish started to come on. Same spot for all the fish.

so these were all caught in perth? look like the big spawning fish, somewhere close to the sound maybe ;) ?

Thanks steve for a good days fishing,had a blast catching them pinkies and drinking sherberts beer have to do it again soon.

Well done guys.... maybe we should have followed you back to the sound!

You guys are very non committal about where ya got em???

21 nice pinkies caught, 21 nice pinkies released.... hmmm the sound perhaps? Were any of them milting, hence spawning fish, hence fish released?? Not trying to stir the pot, just asking s'all....?

the conditions look to good for the sound.....well done fella's where ever you were

What makes you say that Salmo, wouldn't it be "calmer" in the sound?
Havine said that, thers is no land/islands in the background of any of the photo's. Either not the sound, or very clever photography to avoid giving away landmarks ....... sneaky sneaky....

Salmo, i assumed you were the Andrew named in the text for some reason...???

Yes, they were in the sound, all caught and released too.

I am still unsure as to weather it is illegal to bring snapper onboard during the ban, even if you are releasing them? Anyone know?

Because I was in the sound ....and it was a washing machine.

Yeh got a few dolphins...;

Dolphins....mmmmm yummy, slitting their throats is the best bit...

I AM JOKING!!!!

Just happen to know thats where they were caught. :) Jeez you guys are fast, thought that post was edited in time. Surely thats the 'nonose' dolphin in your avatar. :)

That dolphin slaughter video was pretty atrocious, suprised there hasn't been more hoo and haaring over it.

Yes, they were in the sound, all caught and released too.

sorry but if anyone else is viewing this, photo 2 clearly shows 3 pinks on the deck, and you/ they released these fish. very sad very sad. too all the kiddies that wish to kiss and throw them back this isn't the way, kill shots on the carpet with ya piss weak abu layed across makes for a pretty picture, but gutless fishing targeting spawning pinks.

i have noticed too, the shots/pics have changed there seems to be a pic missing there was clearly a pic of a spawning pink on sundy with blood ooozing from its mouth with spoof coming from its rear end and over a fellas hand. Even thou there is still blood coming from one release fish which isn't good. what are you trying to hide?

and for the record, no it isn't illegal but morally it is, your call, hope you can look the next generation in the eyes.

It is our responsibility to ensure we leave this planet in a better shape for the next generation if we don't we have failed and this has failed miserably

Foz

sorry if this offends but i love fishing and without fish we cant go fishing its that simple

For your Information Fozzy the post and pictures are from one or two fisho,s on this site. So for you to critosize the whole site over something you dont agree with is pretty childish. The whole appeal to this site is the freedom of speech and lack of the usual crap on other sites. Now while you may not agree with the catching of these fish you are entitled to your oppinion but so are the guys that caught the fish. Now your the one that said that its your call so they made there call and decided to catch and release some snapper. Whats the problem. Im sure theres guys out there every night catching and keeping snapper, so at leased they put theres back isnt that saying something about the respect for the breeding of these fish. Now if they had a taging kit with them and taged every fish would you still be bagging these guys. Im thinking you wouldnt. Sambo,s school up in summer of our coast for whatever reason (I would asume to spawn, but not posotive) But no one has any problem scull draging them up from 110m of water by the thousands each summer them leaving them to flap around on the surface until they probably die. I have been out there and seen this so Im speaking from experience. So you need to respect peoples decisions weather its the decision you would have made or not.

interesting... i too notice that the bleeding from the gills fish has been removed.... there was a post that seems to have disappeared that I thought would have raised some interesting points, if everyone kept their guns in their holders...

but i'm sure the mods have a good explanation? =)

not stirring, its just a question.

as for sambos... if there are thousands of them out there floating on the surface waiting to die, I'm sure some of the boys will be about with bats and batons cracking some heads... although there are 'floaters' USE THE DAMN RELEASE WEIGHT, an exception is some w0nkers that really just can't be stuffed, and leave it to OTHER responsible fishos to send them down. just saying, that might be a bit of an exaggerated call buddy?

by the way, yes, if left floating, they die, by being dehydrated and picked to pieces by the mutton birds, starting with the eyes first (easiest to remove). so its not very nice, and no they dont just 'have a rest, then swim back down'.

lets not get testy now. interesting calls from both sides, but lets not start having a bit of a war =)

Pump iron to drop iron!

Sorry, not pointing the finger at anyone but Im sure most of us guys try to do the right thing.It was just a little disapointing to see so many fish floatin out there last summer. I was just trying to make a point is all.

Yes, the picture in question has gone Kasey as a request of Bouttime and Sherbert who took the photo and uploaded it.

This will not turn into an 'ATTACK' thread, you are able to discuss at length your opinion on catching pink snapper, releasing them, anything to do with fishing.

IF YOU 'ATTACK' another member, slander, defame, abuse, anything of those sorts I will have no problem with removing your access. This site is a friendly fishing community and whilst emotive issues are welcomed to be discussed, it does not give you the right to 'attack' another member and Andy and I have no reservation about banning people who are here to deliberately try and cause disruption to this site.

Thanks,
Adam Gallash
Moderator

I thought Fozzy post raised some interesting points too, any reason why it was removed?

OOps my bad, seems to be back now......

me thinx i should stop visitin Salmo's bikie mates.... :)

ok tapout may have jumped in with guns blazing but as you say it is a freedom of speech,why would you treat spawning pinkies with utmost disrespect is mind boggling, if they were tagging they should treat the fish with more respect then that, after all you are trying too see the survival rate. movement and effects it has on spawning fish, fair dinkum, any scientist would have a heart attack if they were tagged fish, ( didn't see any, didn't notice any comments about it)I was going to say maybe they should be, but after there fish handling skills i don't think they are needed would influence the data too much

thanks kasey glad I ain't the only that has noticed there is a pic missing,

i hope ryan can comment on this thread, he after all is a guru on these fish

instead of deleting my whole post why not edit it. as kasey said it had some valid points to address

foz

I would have to say that us taggers are very selected by Corey Waikefield/WA Fisheries for a reason. We are trained and do it as asked and we help the fish by tagging in the correct manner/methods, pure catch and release on these spawning fish isn't good IMO

I'm not saying Tapout or anyone has gone out of their way to hurt fish but I will agree that this practice isn't good due to the fatality of pink snapper when hooked.

When pinks are spawning & feeding they'll take the bait down often which results in two snelled hooks or even one being gut hooked and with my 9 years of pink fishin and 4 years of tagging this results in many deaths!

Deep hooked pink snapper will have blood emitting from the gills & mouth,some suffocate the fish by the swolliwing of hooks and it will promote death (we have the statistics) This is hard to take when these fish are very unique spawning fish that are the only "moving" spawning fish around.

Foz has delevired this is a strong and over stepping way IMO but that's his way and I'm sure he's absorbing this approach also.

I dont write too many articles on Cockburn Sound pink snapper as you may have noticed, for this reason. If I do I'm waving big pinks in ppl's face and stiring them up over the ban, for this reason I have toned down my articles on this area in particular, maybe down the track who knows but these fish need our help.

If you care about pink snapper in Cockburn sound you should get them before and after the ban, if you're a good pinky angler (many out there) this isn't hard and you get to keep a feed also which I have no objection especially when they die/gut hook etc

When a Cockburn Sound pinky in particular swim's off dont think they will all survive.....food for thought!

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

to be fair, it seems like there has been pretty decent fish-handling techniques for most of the fish. no fingers in gills, as in none of those invasive "gill shots" or "eyes in eyeball" shots, so who's to really comment about fish handling. as far as I know, the skipper knows his stuff.

lets not hide the fact that CnR is not 100%, and fish do swallow hooks (unless ur jigging =P), with the hooks then causing damage that results in bleeding. it could happen on no account of the angler, just part of fishing.

lets not assume too much:
i wasn't there, so i don't know if they were tagging..
3 fish lying on deck might just be a triple simultaneos hookup.

i'm just happy to see some pictures of a good day out, and i think it just boils down to the question: should we target spawning aggregations?

the answer? not with this kind of weather =S

Pump iron to drop iron!

This very subject raised its head on another local forum just recently. It was an actively contributed to thread that showed there is a lot of mixed feeling and thought process regarding the targetting of any fish during a close season or ban.

I think the general consensus, and an opinion that i agree with is, its a personal choice thing. If you feel that your fish handling skills are up to scratch, that you are using barbless or crushed barb single hooks to enable efficient hook removal, time out of water is kept to the bearest minimum, (in fact i feel water release is a waaaay better option, rather than removing them from the water at all), etc etc etc, then yeah, theres no reason you shouldn't target them. As others have mentioned, the mortality rate for C & R fish, particularly the sound pinkies, as mentioned by long time tagger, and cockburn pinky advocate Ryan Thipthorp, is quite high. So if you are comfortable knowing that at least some of the fish you are releasing are probably going to die needlessly, then go ahead, keep targetting them....

To be fair also Kasey you and many others dont have the correct handling skills with pink snapper that is required for C&R as the WA Fisheries/Corey Waikefield wants, I thought I did also until Corey eduated me so I disagree with ya!

Fish die even without blood, I know first hand after catching over 300 pink snapper mate, me thinks I'm qualified to comment on this ;)

You state "that's part of fishin".....very untrue in this case as you do not target unique spawning fish with that attitude IMO. Also this comment " hooks then causing damage that results in bleeding. it could happen on no account of the angler, just part of fishing".....part of fishin yes but not on a unique group of spawning fish that are capable in spilling out millions of eggs or milt tadies......so wrong!

Let's no assume yes, but no tags in fish and no mentioned about tagging. As I mentioned before, I dont know Tapout nor think he's trying to do the wrong thing as he's not but ppl should be aware of the outcome.....I am hense why I've backed of on promoting these fish ;)

Penny dropped yet!

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

Hey Ryan just wanted to clarify that I wasnt there. I was home drinking like a fish. I was just voicing my opinion is all.

Oooooops :(

Sorry mate :( I've got no issues with anyone involed personally but I'm just saying my bit as I've spent nearly 10 years to these fish.....happy for any "educated & hands-on answers in this field" ;)

Cheers

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

My take on Tapouts post was that he was trying to defend the site and the generalisations from Fozzy's shoot from the hip first post, nothing more than that.

Edumication..... I think that is the message we are all trying to get across, with varying degrees of success. The more knowledge you have of a topic the more qualified you are to comment and the more atuned you are to the ramifications of your actions.

As little as 40 years ago people had no idea of the ramifications of smoking. With education we all now know what it can do...sure some still choose to smoke even though they are potentially killing themselves, but over time and with more education those numbers are dwindling rapidly.

The smoking/snapper analogy is perhaps closer than you think. People will still target C&R snapper in spawning season as they choose to do so legally (remember it is not illegal to smoke). But with forums such as this and advocates spreading the message without abuse or ridicule or holier than thou attitudes, the fishing public will get the message and hopefully fish handling techniques will improve, release techniques will improve, and less pressure will be voluntarily placed on our prime breeding stock. A positive outcome of more fish for our kids and grandkids to catch may just become a reality. Lets hope the message sinks in before it is too late.

And for the record, the day was windy as all hell and where would any of us likely go to still fish and get maximum protection..... Cockburn Sound of course. Now what's to say these guys didn't pull up to a lump and have a fish, and struck it lucky when a big school of snapper swam by. And by jingo's good on em for releasing all the fish. 4 guys fishing and three fish on deck at the same time from a schooling aggregation, possible yes, plausible yes, probable don;t know, as I have never fished the Sound for snapper, but it sounds like it would be. A picture might paint a thousand words but without the artist putting it in context we might all be reading the wrong book.

I agree Andy but your comment "People will still target C&R snapper in spawning season as they choose to do so legally".....yes very true but the way to reduce this/reduce the fatality of spawning pinky's is to educate and every picture put on a fishing website has hundreds/thousands of angling members getting excited and in many cases getting their boats ready to C&R......I see it first hand in my shop.....trust me!

Food for thought, you say, you show, you promote....."they will" ;)

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

when i am wrong, i am happy to humbly admit that i am most certainly... wrong! =P my post was juuuust after yours, so i didn't have time to absorb your information yet. thanks for opening my eyes.

sorry, up until the last point my context was general handling techniques for Catch and Release in general, not specific handling techniques for tagging CnR . also, a few picture can't paint the whole picture of how the fish was handled... or could it? But anyway, I see how it is the same thing. good handling techniques increases the chance of a successful catch and release. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance, but perhaps someday you might have some time educate me too Ryan? =) but even better, not targeting them at all, as you have just said, is THE BEST way; although that is left up to the angler.

and the thing about blood, was to do with the mysterious missing bleeding picture (just kidding), but yes, again, of course no sign of blood does not mean no injury has been done (internal bleeding/damage etc.)

sorry, again i was out of context, and referring to fishing in general. what a lost sheep i am. I will now stay mute on this topic, like I should have in the first place, i'm sure many of you agree =P

ok, enough poking my nose around. again, sorry, i was either going on out of context or was simply being ignorant.

i would like to end my soliloquy with the matter that: the weather lately has still been absolute b@ll$.

Pump iron to drop iron!

That then presents the age old dillema for site hosts such as Adam as to exectly what do you allow to be shown. We've all had instances where innocent posts of fish pics have been torn to pieces by over zealous comment (from the fish natzi brigade as I call them) and then see the brag board and fishing reports pic posters disappear for several months as readers and posters become fearful of being taken to task for their poor fish handling techniques.

A web forum thrives on differing opinion, but can also die due to extremes of such opinions. Context is a big thing with fishing photos, especially when that context can possibly promote or dismiss certain, shall we say "unsavoury" fishing techniques. I certainly agree with you with regards to "advertising" the fact that important species such as Snapper are "an easy catch at the moment" but thankfully within 24 hours of the pics being posted we have had a healthy debate, which I think firmly rests on the side of conservation and education, so it is a good thing to have opened up this conversation. Perhaps a few more converts have been made as a result.

No probs KC, sorry to go off a bit mate but I'm very passionate about these fish "unique spawning fish" and I do come accross strong in this area.....sorry for that!

There's so much to learn about these fish and I was promoting their captures for years as you know then the "penny dropped" and I saw what I've created.....good for my shop(not the intention) but the fish suffer and lesson learn't you could say mate!

Target these fish before and after the ban, that's the best thing to do IMO and you can keep a nice feed also!

JMO people!

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

I do agree fully Andy, I think people learn from this, well I hope so and if ppl really cared for these particular fish they would see this and think about it next time as this subject re C&R really only relates to this unique spawning fish so it's not like it's the never ending story!

I was one of few people to promote the captures of these fish as mentioned in my post to KC, I've learn't that lesson with heaps of clients coming into my shop wanting to C&R.......not good at all as the fish suffers and the angler get satisfation yes but you need to weight up the fatality's.......heart crushing for me ;)

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

I for one was unsure if you were allowed to catch pink snapper during the ban, even if you were releasing them. I felt that the photo with the snapper bleeding from the gills wasn't necessary as there were enough quality photos that showed off how good a session it was for the guys. I do think it is important that we show care in how we catch our fish, why there was such a vibrant discussion in the fish handling techniques thread.
http://fishwrecked.com/node/2766

I'd just like to make note that this issue relates to pink snapper in Cockburn sound only and is why it is a sensitive issue that needs to be discussed.

hey, not a problem ryan. I've known of you and mr.pinko for a while, was there back when you had that 'snapper night' at oceanside, and was aware some of the events that that led to after that...

anyway, just to show no hard feelings, i would be more than happy to go out fishing with you mr. thipthorp. then you can show me your CnR technique... would need a few fish so I get the practice. Not in the sound during closure of course ;) ;)

haha, im just being cheeky. see you at oceanside, ;) ;)

Pump iron to drop iron!

As this post has caused a bit of a stir I would like to start by explaining that evening. We traveled all the way to Mindarie for the night fish to find nobody else out due to the weather. The decision was made that it was too dangerous to go out so I made the call to fish around the sound and find protection around the islands until the wind dropped. We started fishing around 330pm. Happy to catch a few KGs Skippy and if anything mullaway.

As you could see from the photos we did come across a few schools of snapper and did land a few fish. All but three were released with the hooks removed without damage and the other three we had to cut the leader with the hooks inside. I would prefer to do that than damage the fish even more by trying to get the hooks out. The photo with the 3 fish onboard was taken as all three were placed on deck after a triple hookup. The fish were out of the water for as long as it took to remove the hooks, take a quick photo then back into the water. The photo that was removed I can’t explain as it was handled in the same way as all the others. All the fish caught were removed from the water, placed on the floor of the boat, had the hooks removed and put back after a quick photo. No more than about 2 min.

At the end of the day it was my call to fish around the sound and those on board came for the ride. Did we expect to catch anything? No not really. It was all about being on the water and having a few hours of fun.

I claim to be no expert on C&R but do have an understanding on how to look after them for the best chance of survival. over 15 years of fishing i have learn't one or two things obout fishing and looking after them. For those that have been fishing with me know that I am not a big eater of fish and tend to release more fish than I keep. Coming from the eastern states I know what its like to see the oceans raped of fish by pros and recreational fisherman. My biggest thrill to fishing is the hunt and the fight, not the kill. All last season catching sambos, about 300 in 3 months. Of those I kept about 20, mainly as the people on the boat wanted to try them for eating or they didn’t recover. Not a bad ratio. Survival rate was about 95%, saying that I didn’t see any floating around my boat.

By no means am I trying to make an excuse for what has been said since this post was posted, more so to let those who made comments as to my morals towards the fishing we had that night. I have since made contact with the department of fisheries as to the tagging program in the sound for snapper and also the tagging program for Samson fish.

Out to you fozzy. As for the so called “kill shot” you talk about with my “piss weak abu” how about you try to find out what the photo was about before you make comments. Gutless fishing is your call. That’s all I have to say on that.

Will I fish the sound again, after this response prob not. Have I put a few people offside? Probably but there is not much I can do about that now.

One last thought. What’s better 10,20,30 prob more boats fishing a week before the ban and keeping 100,200,300 fish that come into spawn or a few boats going out and catching and releasing a few fish. If I am looked down upon then so be it. Not much I can do about it now.

Happy fishing

well explained bouttime. no-one has allowed for the fact that there are other fish species to be caught in the sound but you happened on a lump of pinkies. In reality, it would be very interesting to see how many of us, with four people on board with four rods going off in 'washing machine conditions' (salmo) and in the heat of the moment say, nah, too many fish, let's go home....I don't think so.

Out to you fozzy. As for the so called “kill shot” you talk about with my “piss weak abu” how about you try to find out what the photo was about before you make comments. Gutless fishing is your call. That’s all I have to say on that.

bouttime, yep said i may of over reacted, but why did i.

this is why. at the moment you can catch and release pinks form the sound. what happens when they say you cant, how is this going to happen, it cant, unless you totally ban fishing the sound during the closure. now this puts a bit of spin on it, totally ban fishing in the sound whilst the closure. you reckon they would do it if the pinks were seriously under threat. i reckon they would

this is my last comment on it and hope this helps with an explanation

its ok for a couple of blokes to target these fish. even say 10 on any given night what happens with 50, ryan has said the mortality rate can be high so if 4 caught 21 and say 4 died thats still alot but not that many. if 50 caught over 100 and 20 died that is scary and if this happened say 3 times a week , well you do the maths

leave them to do their thing

foz
ps thanks ryan you are a champ

I had a customer come in and say to me "Oh i caught 3 big snapper the other day, must have been about 10kg each...caught just past the five fathom" about 2 seconds later he said "are fisheries strict on bringing fish back to the woodies ramp?" I knew he didnt catch those fish where he said by the way he was acting. This is why i feel there needs to be 1. Complete ban on fishing, catching and keeping snapper 2. No snapper to be on board if returning to woodmans.

There has been talk of the rous head ramp, but they can launch from east freo or rockingham if they want to head out to "five fathom"

HI ALL. WOULD JUST LIKE TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO ALIENATE MYSELF FROM THE COMMENTS MADE BY "FOZZY". TWO NAMES THAT ARE SO SIMILAR ON THIS WEB SITE COULD BE A HASSLE ME THINKS. TA

Just as easy to head to the sound from lueewin or the proposed rous head ramp....

Fozzy got us all talking, a step in the right direction me thinks...

I AGREE THAT THE TALK IS GOOD BUT I WAS JUST CLEARING UP THE NAME THING EARLY TO AVOID CONFUSION IN THE FUTURE....

No probs Foz, good onya for saying something. :)

I'd suggest that you should take this up with the authorities that be if you feel so passionately about it Fozzy. While this thread may serve to dissuade others from fishing in the sound while it is pink snapper spawning season, it doesn't mean that its illegal and whilst it may not be good for the fish, why haven't the department of fisheries implemented a total ban on fishing for pink snapper in the sound, whether it be catch and release or for the table?

Cheers for keeping it civil fellas,
Adam

Good points Matt and I agree. It is our moral responsibility to leave them alone, but I feel that in this instance Bouttime has justified and defended his actions more than is necessary.

Now I pose this question, while we know that pink snapper spawn in the sound, does this mean if I catch a pink snapper on the 3 mile that he will likely to be a spawning fish as well?

ooooooo good question Adam

it really is easy to tell a spawning snap though, milting fish are not pleasant, and make for a very slippery deck...

Is it ok to keep a spawning/milting snap from the three mile though? toughie to answer.... Personally wouldn't keep it,but wouldn't frown upon others should they choose to.

I know about the milting fish, watched the skipper cop a load last season. :) Do they milt only when they are ready to spawn or when under stress? The last pink snapper I caught a few weeks back was out at the containers and was filled with eggs. I felt guilty as all hell when I got home, but how was I to know that she was a breeder from out there, she wasn't even fat around the guts which I thought would have been a telltale sign and it was extremely early in the 'so called' season.

So do snapper spawn in many aggregations around Perth that we don't know about that are being damaged while the focus goes on the sound?

decent size fishs there mate

First of all Ryan's comments are pretty much my feelings on this subject !

Second thing "Saturday 21st - Pink Snapper Expedition"
seems rather delibrate to me as the title states

I'll let you fishos know when coles has the next shipment of snapper in it will be easer for you they come cleaned!!

Im directing this question at Ryan for I know the responce will be to his best of his know how and I respect Ryans know how .

Why is the state doing tagging reseach on sambos and not on threatin species such as the Dhui??

Now to be fair to the fishos , whats the difference between targeting snapper during spawning time and targeting sambos at the same time ??(besides the fact snapper are protected sambos are not during there spawning time )

My personel opion is to leave them alone when spawining session is on

fish hard fish safe cheers

I changed the title of the thread to be pink snapper expedition, based purely on the photo's that were submitted. Sherbert originally posted the forum title as 'october 21st' so it is my fault that it is represented that way as if they were targetting them, my apologies to Steve and Steve.

Expedition seems to be my word of the moment which I've just noticed, Gully's video title too and I've just re-read through a piece I've been writing and Expedition is everywhere, sigh!

I will let Ryan address the other issues you've brought into the thread.

Just to add people seem to have no problem targeting Sambo,s, Australian salmon, and Mullaway at there most vulnerable times yet when it come to snapper we all decide to kick up a stink and say how wrong it is. I think its a bit hippocritical if you ask me. Now just to make it quite clear I put myself in that catagory as well. Im just as bad as the average fisherman who cant resist the urge to catch a decent fish when the opportunity arrises. Yet I do understand the need to proserve our breeding stock for the future. If they put a total ban on Cockburn snapper fishing for good Im totaly for it, but until they do so Its going to be left to the descretion of the angler. So until they are clearly breaking the law I dont beleive we have the right to judge there morrals or charactors of these guys.

Sorry Foz didn’t mean to steal ya name, and since Adam has changed me back to Wally I feel much better posting under my real name, onya and sorry if I offended anyone, but got ya's going hey hahahahahhaha hope it stays on track,

Ian good questions, I would like to have a crack if you don’t mind to answer the first one why are we tagging sambo's rather then Jewies, they are have been for years, Mortality study run by ANSAWA and Recfishwest along with fisheries has been going longer then the sambo tagging. Mike Mackie is still trying to get acoustic tags in these fish to see if they move or not, even thou the tagging by ANSAWA over the years prove beyond doubt they don’t. Lots of people disagree with this, they all follow the crays. Pity the crays aren’t high on the list for Jewie fodder (fact) but since everyone reckons they move the study needs to be done. either way the Jewies are going down hill at a rapid rate and know one really gives a toss, every one should know my views on this, if not here it is, lock series of parts of the coast line up corridors 5km wide from the high tide mark out to 200m have a series of these from past Dawesville to Lancelin its the only way, everyone still needs to go fishing fairly, and this accommodates for that and ensures the Jewie survival and other species, and if you think about it it ain't rocket science, big areas where no one can fish fish spill over especially Jewies, Territorial bastards apparently, 7%of the ocean from Lancelin to Dawesville would give you at least 5 ( changed this from 8 did my maths again) of these corridors 7% of your fishing grounds, yep still leaves 93% to do what ever you like ( dotn ask me where they should go, thats a kletch question haha)

Now to be fair to the fishos , whats the difference between targeting snapper during spawning time and targeting sambos at the same time ??(besides the fact snapper are protected sambos are not during there spawning time )

I personally have had many of heated debates with good friends over this. These arguments are valid, why should we put any fish in any higher basket then another. For me it comes down to sustainability, are the targeted species under threat, now Samson fish whether you like them or hate them have become a popular species to target. Injecting millions of tourist dollars not to mention the millions of dollars worth of bling bling that goes with it. then of course you can say the feel good factor ( social factor). mates get revved up taking the piss out of each other when he gets rammed up on the rail watching his bling get smashed to pieces falling into the drink, as his sunnies drop in because he is thinking should I go in after it or not is priceless, and you cant wipe the smiles of these guys faces, so why shouldn't we look after these fish.

Funny there is one thing that people forget that could very well wipe these fish out in no time. Hello Perth Sydney fish markets here we need 200 tonne of kingfish.Yep roger that, we will get them tommoz you will have it by the weekend. It would be that easy to wrap a net around these fish and they are allowed to do it, nothing stopping them except that big order from Sydney.

Pinkies do spawn in other places but not in big aggregations like Cockburn sound and Warnbro it is pretty unique, Craig Radford ( wangler writer) the other day nailed some one fly, he kept 3 way outside the sound, not even in the area, do I think this is wrong, yes but cant stop him or any one from doing it no, do people put back a Jewie From Jan through out march, nope not if it is size it gets a spike in the brain, they are spawning too.

From my post you can see how stuffed up it can all be, its like chucking a dart at the board and hoping for the best. not enough research, not enough people to do the research, not enough money to pay the people to do the correct research, it is a huge problem and there is nothing we can do about it without a massive injection of money , we are loosing a winnable battle. Data is sometimes misread or exaggerated; sometimes the research hasn’t been done properly just goes on that assumption or that dam dart board.

Until the day that the fishery gets the respect it deserves it will always have issues. I bet my left nut that if any of you guys that fish these aggs took the time to sit down and listened to Corey Wakefield's research on the Cockburn sound pink snapper you wouldn’t even think to fish these aggregations, they are important fish, any more important then other fish, well I let you be the judge of that

Enough from me I need to lie down, my head hurts from sitting on the lonely side of the fence. leave it to the experts i say,

please tell me i am wrong in 10 years time

Wally Parkin (Fozzy)

I will add this whilst fixing my poor grammar yeah i know there is more but the bloody post is too long.

I was a young man down at Mike rowanboats tackle box ( 20 years ago) tying lead head jigs when he said. Wally do you know they use to commercial fish for Pink Snapper in Blackwall reach. That day he said that, changed my life. I didn't care much about my fishing and i concentrated on the fish a little more. dad would say where's the cobbler son or the flatties, sorry dad puttn them back,

Now i don't know how true it was about the commercial fishing in blackwall reach, I haven't bothered to look. I just find it fitting that I abuse that very same man on wangler for writing about C&R on pinks in the sound. now wheres that bed.

I guess there was no mistaking your dulcet tones in that first post, though I have to admit that last post was right on point and without any barbs or jousts (top marks). I think your innimitable style / reputation certainly gets the blood stirring and thanks to some cool heads and I think an overwhelming desire of the people who frequent this site, to learn from eachother and do the right thing, this thread has no doubt enlightened all those who have participated and also countless others who may read but choose not to post. Thank you one and all for keeping it civil and intelligent and sharing your experiences / knowledge for the betterment of the species and our future continued enjoyment in catching them (outside the sound and outside spawning season.)

ryan we all know your thoughts on fishing the ban for snapper, as youve told me personally and on forums, what l would like to know is how , when fishing for snapper whilst tagging do you stop the fish from being cut hooked.with over the 300 fish youve caught you would have had this problem happen more than once.
also on the handling of fish , maybe you can explain to people how to handle the fish incase people catch them whilst targeting other species.
another question , how many tagging kits are handed out for tagging snapper.not that l want to do it, but say there was 10 and every one of those caught 100 snapper , surely there is quiet afew that dont look like they will survive , or is it we dont know yet.

ps;ryan, not having a crack mate. just want some clarification
holth

Onya Wally,

possibly the most well rounded and succinct post of yours i've ever read. Well done mate.... ;)

Normally i can't be bothered reading looooong posts, if i wanted to spend 10 mins reading something i'll buy a book or magazine, but that post kept me reading. You sure do know ya stuff mate, well researched, well read and respresentative of all of our thoughts(i think). Looks like you've eaten a bit of , for want of a better desription, humble pie, and "toned down" your writings. I'm sure you'll get heaps more support this way Wally. Credit to ya mate.

As an advocate of your mission for some time, i'll say it again, keep fighting the good fight mate, you're doin us all, and our kids a favour. ;)

Hi Holth & ppl's,

How do you stop the fish being gut hooked, originally I would strike as soon as I saw any movement on the rod tip which would reduce gut hooking but the best way and I'm finally moving over to Corey Wakefield's way is to use chem sharp circle hooks (barbed crush) and I'm using one hook now....no snell!This is making things alot better now!

Gut hooked fish can die and even if you cut the trace they can still die, after all these years I've got what it takes to acertain if the hook needs to come out or cut the trace line...still no gaurantee but a better idea we taggers have!

As far as how to handle the fish better, I'd rather they left them alone whilst they do their thing personally for 2-3 months. I'm happy to tell people face to face but I'd rather not condone any way to help reduce fatality's in "C&R Cockburn Sound pink snapper during the ban" via the net!

As for tagging kits handed out, only guessing but perhaps 20 but only a small hand full including myself really get behind the tagging in a big way. As for the mortality yes that happens but it's for a good cause when a tagged snapper dies and we get VERY important data from that fishes life and how the tagging and the gut hook treatment went etc! People C&R with fatality which I'll gaurantee you'll get will be for NOTHING ;)

If Coreys on my boat which he is and on others for that matter he can keep dead fish also during the tagging/ban program time so it's more involved that what people think!

C&R on Cockburn Pink snapper is bad, if you do you'll need to think about the thousands of pinkys dying by your satisfaction to hit on spawning ag's and they are completetly different to mulloway and sambo's too. Yes ppl do the wrong think all the time in the Sound but we fishing web nuts are suppose to be an example and be the leaders so to speak...aren't we???

Pink snapper that visit Cockburn Sound/Warnbro etc are the only moving spawning group of pink snapper in WA which makes them VERY UNIQUE and they potentially spawn for a majority of the metro coast and more....our tagged fish have gone north to kalbarri, south towards the Capes etc etc

Think about it for a minute, diggest the info and ask yourself if ya wanna do some Cockburn Sound C&R with guaranteed fatality's.....approx ages of dead fish maybe 10-20years old with the potential to spawn millions of eggs & milt taddies......hard to stomach eh!

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

I always assumed that when the snapper fishing ban in the sound was on, that no one fished them. To me, a closed season ment leave them alone. And I for one have never fished for them during this time. But saying that, I can see that catching and releasing fish of that size in 9 metres would be a great session. But for the good of the species I think we all learned something here and we all should agree to do our part and skip the C&R during the ban.

We dont fully know exactly how many die but through returned tagged/dead fish and over looking tagging data we can study the survival & mortality rate....especially with tagging comments on data sheet re "how the fish is on release" etc
There's more that die and never turn up but the mortality rate is low when compared to what's tagged, we have tagged hundred's and hundreds for a small amount of recaptures and a small amount that die "when done properly"
Dead fish show certain sign's that they are dying, some float away and die, some swim off or float off like there's gaurateed death but recaptured years later which happened to one of my tagged fish recently. It was recaptured recently after a few years at liberty and I wrote on the report sheet that is swollowed the hooks and may die...it survived but I'm not going to get excited over this either as this isn't always gonna be the norm.
The research has been going on for years as it takes that long to get all the egg survey done, the BIOMAS estimated and for Corey to complete his Thesis (hope ya dont mind me comenting on your behalf Corey).......all this takes time and you need years to recoupe info....the tagging may end soon but a handful may continue also....up to Corey & WA Fisheries!
Holth,
Happy to do a write up on handling fish in general but wont condone how to help "banned pinky's" survive better whilst C&R...pop in mate, happy to discuss however!
After 10 years of hard slog I've got answers with experience to back that up (no text book stuff), happy to discuss anthing if ppl have other opinions!
** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**
Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

I also have been intrigued how statistically you can get any accuracy on mortality rates unless they use radar tags, that plot the movement of the fish. Without that sort of tag I would have thought that there would be virtually no data to confirm mortality rates as I doubt anyone wets a line and catches a dead fish with a tag in it (or do they?). Unless someone physically retrieves the tag from a dead fish carcass, how can they be sure the fish has died? It may just be at large still (evading the baits with hooks in them). I understand how the tag commentary would provide some limited evidence but is that all they base the mortality numbers on?
I'm not disputing that these C&R fish don;t die but I am interested how they can determine the death rate without plotting the (non movement) of a tag ie presumed dead and lying on the ocean floor. It probably comes down to funding issues and the ability to get these trackable tags into the fish.
This isn;t a Pinky question by the way, its an all species question.
The last time I studied biostats was 25 years ago at uni and have forgotten absolutely everything so I am sure there is some mathematical formula that works it out but it genuinely has me intrigued as to how they do it. Can anyone enlighten me? Matt? Gully? Ryan? Wally? There must be something I am missing in the explanation so far as I still think there are big gaps in the data assessment on mortality unless they do something else to ascertain the likely levels besides an assessment of how well a fish swam off.

Okay, this is going the next level IMO, I'm a good angler that gets fish and own's a Tackle store....not a PHD scientist!

These microscopic questions need to be answered by the man Corey Wakefield who is doing his PHD on this, me thinks he's the one qualified on this so I'll get him to say his bit tomorrow!

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

I wasn;t expecting you to be able to show me a calculus equation or anything like that. Your comments so far have certainly enlightened me and many others about the plight of the pinky specifically, but I am interested in how the scientists verify such things as mortality rates from any form of C&R. Maybe its the repressed scientist in me coming out after all these years, but I think it would help me understand a little more about the matter and hopefully others will get some knowledge if Corey answers a few questions from the forum. C&R has been a long discussed debate and having a scientists POV would be fantastic. Like you I'm just a fisherman who likes to catch fish and hopes his kids and grandkids can have a chance to get the same degree of enjoyment out of life. Unfortunately I have a rather inquisitive brain that likes to delve a little deeper to understand the how and why questions a little more than others.

"Often if you look to deep you've missed it"

I'll get Corey to comment ;)

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

Okay I've spoken to Corey and he's read all this info and he's emailing me his responce soon with some good info for the "deep searchers"........ I'll put that up when I get the email!

Corey is a very very busy person and prefer's it this way, he's happy for me to go on answering questions as done already!

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

Said in my best "Maaaad Scientist" voice.

Thanks for doing that Ryan, and please pass on my thanks to Corey for taking the time out of his schedule to satisfy us "Deep Searcher's" curiosity.

Okay people, sorry for the delay, as mentioned Corey is very busy and he's been off work sick also. He's been good enough to quickly email some info through for deep searchers on mortality & C&R!

No calculus equations or repressed scientist mumbo jumbo, just good info for all to read!

Corey Wakefields email as follows;

It is very difficult to estimate the mortality rate of caught and released fish. As a scientist we try not to reinvent the wheel, and therefore apply and adapt the findings from other studies to aid the methods used in our own study. Previous studies on snapper have shown that dart tags do not reduce growth or cause mortality. Thus, mortality from tagging (and catch and release) is most likely a result of handling or injury during capture. The handling practices that are used by the snapper taggers in Cockburn Sound are focused on reducing the fish time on the deck and calming the fish to reduce movement and possible injury. Therefore, the most likely cause of mortality is from injuries obtained during capture, and more specifically how deep the hook is imbedded in the fish. Studies on the incidents of gut hooking on snapper from various hook types has shown that circle (or rounded) hooks result in approximately 10% of fish caught being gut hooked, compared to approximately 30% with standard “J” shaped hooks. My personal experience with the hook type we are currently using for snapper in Cockburn Sound, is that the incidence of gut or gill hooked fish is less than 3%. This has been achieved through trial and error of different hook sizes and types over the past four years.

I support the comments made by Ryan and Wally in this thread, in that it is not good practice to catch and release snapper during the spawning period. Although we are unable to measure the disruption that C & R has on their behaviour during spawning, the effect of stress on egg production has been investigated. A study from New South Wales found that snapper are highly susceptible to stress-induced impairment of reproduction. More specifically, levels of testosterone and estrogen were reduced after capture as a result of increased cortisol caused by stress. Moreover, early stage eggs that were being produced in the ovary became atretic (were absorbed). The difference between that study and catch and release of snapper in Cockburn Sound is that they used traps to capture snapper, thus stress levels may vary between the two capture techniques, and snapper in Cockburn Sound are most likely larger.

Therefore, the legalities behind catch and release of snapper in Cockburn Sound during the closed period are mainly due to issues with compliance as it is impossible to determine what species you may be fishing for. The ban on fishing for snapper is in place for a reason and perhaps people should respect this and target snapper outside of the closed period.

There are three main points I am trying to get across are firstly, the materials (hooks, rigs, etc.) and methods (fish handling techniques) used by the snapper taggers in Cockburn Sound have been developed and refined over the last four years, and thus are specific to the size and depth at which these snapper are caught (which would vary markedly from tagging sambos behind Rottnest Island). Secondly, catch and release fishing has tha potential to impair reproduction in snapper. And thirdly, the snapper tagging program in Cockburn Sound focuses on quality rather than quantity. By this I mean a limited number of taggers (approximately ten), that were selected (by myself) based on three criteria, a) they had many years experience in catching snapper in Cockburn Sound, b) they had previously tagged fish and c) they had a high conservation ethic; tag a predetermined number of snapper, which is regulated by an independently assigned ethics committee for which I am responsible for reporting too annually, so that only the required amount of snapper are tagged to achieve sufficient numbers for the purpose of the study.

Corey Wakefield

** Oceanside = Strudwick,Daiwa,Van Staal,Jigmaster Rods, Shimano,Penn etc...**

Owner/Operator
Oceanside Tackle and Marine
364 South Street,
O'Connor, Perth WA
Ph# 9337 5682
Fishing/Boating/Dive/Marine
** OPEN 7 DAYS **

Thanks Ryan and please pass on my thanks to Corey for taking the time to shed some light on the topic from the business end of the equation. These fish certainly appear by all accounts to be a special group of spawners that are very important for the metro fishery.

I was assuming the mortality rate calculations would have to be somewhat of an extrapolation of prior or similar studies and I think Corey's comments confirm this. No matter which way you look at it we need to be very cautious about how we deal with these spawners due to their vulnerability to acute fishing pressure.

Thankfully the great WA Dhufish doesn't congregate in such vast numbers in such a well publicised and easily accessible location. If they did you could kiss the species goodbye in less than 10 years.

I'm sure Wally will agree that there needs to be some added protection for the Dhuie, I'm just not so sure as to what that might have to be in order to secure the future of the species and maintain a level of sustainable accessibility to what would have to be the holy grail for a lot of rec fisho's here in Perth.

Thankfully, whilst a lot of people chase Dhuies, very few can actually claim to find them regularly enough to potentially do the same sort of damage that can be done with the Cockburn Sound Pinkies at spawning time. Hopefully if someone ever finds a spot where they breed every year in big numbers...they keep it to themselves and don't say a word. And if they tell the scientists about the spot, then they too need to be sworn to secrecy.

Just as a post script to this thread and Corey's comments about circle hooks, it is no surprise that the last dhuie I caught on Saturday was on a circle hook. Lip hooked as usual and minimal damage to the fish.

They certainly work well, just have to adapt the strike method a bit.

hey guys
i used to cnr snapper in the sound during the ban and i would never even take them out of the water. however when i seen my first pinkie struggle to swim off i stopped fishing during the ban altogether.

as others have said there are other fish in the sound and pinkies can be a bycatch but me personally if i caught a pinkie while chasing mulla i would move to a different spot or target smaller fish for the rest of the night if that failed.

i am not as fanatic about the pinkies as wally and ryan but ryan knows i do respect them and i know longer take anyone to my pinkie spots.
i have seen too many people bringing pinkies home in the sound during the ban late at night(between 12am-4am)as they think no-one will be at the ramps watching them and i feel sick at the sight of them ruining things for our following generations.

so my personal opinion in direct terms:
1 dont target any big fish in the sound during the snapper ban.
2 release the bycatch of pinkies i get outside of the sound(on a rare occasion i might keep 1)

but then again like alot of other fishos i dont eat much fish and only ever take 1 home for the wife and kids (i dont believe in stocking the freezer over multiple nights like alot of people do)

i am not bagging anyone or trying to make anyone feel ashamed of others , what i have written is my views on this matter and that is all.

cheers
happy fishing
paul

wow...huge fish u guys got there......gud effort

the more u fish..the less stress u get....