Seeing Eye Dog Needed for Charter Boat Skipper!
Unbelievable experience this morning. Went out early on first light as the weather was good. Set up on 3 Mile using the Minn Kota Spot Lock and got the home made burley out. Had all the lights going (side and anchor) as the rules say you must when the sun is not up – although it was starting to get light and you could clearly see for a few kilometres. Saw this charter boat coming at us and bearing down. Watched him for a while and there was no course change as he got closer. Got out the 400,000 candle power spot light and flashed and flashed and flashed but still no change. When he was less than 100m away there was no other option but to start up and get the f&%k out of there. Good thing I had the Minn and not an anchor as there were not many seconds in it – although the poor Minn had to be subject to 0 to 15kn in an instant. No doubt the patrons (it was packed) got a shock as this barrage of expletives fired their way as the adrenaline fired up the voice box. To make matters worse the Pinks were on and he went straight over the top of my spot.
I have no idea who he was but I would say a course in remedial navigation is certainly on the cards. Lesson 1 – watch where the f%*k you are going. I could understand it if we were doing something wrong but this wasn’t the case. My only thought was he had Ocean Ramsay on the boat and was going out to find some sharks, hence was a little distracted.
I didn’t get the name of the boat other than it starts with an M and leaves from Hillarys Marina. I don’t know if anyone else has had a similar experience with this guy but I would probably like to tell him myself how close he came to killing me and my boy, and destroying my boat, because he just wasn’t watching where he was going.
Ability is what you are capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it - LH.
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
id be following that up for sure
if you have a starting point as you say,being Hilliarys. Very average indeed.
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
I wonder whether sea rescue
would be able to,allowed to provide you with some info,assuming the other boat had a trip logged.
Georgejungle
Posts: 354
Date Joined: 25/03/09
Sea rescue can't do shit ,
Sea rescue can't do shit , DOT handle this , doesn't rhyme with dills does it
Georgejungle
Posts: 354
Date Joined: 25/03/09
Sea rescue can't do shit ,
Sea rescue can't do shit , DOT handle this , doesn't rhyme with dills does it
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
I was talking about sea rescue
identifying the boat.
slam
Posts: 168
Date Joined: 09/09/09
Definately follow up
Definately follow up on that. Needs a few stern words to the skipper from the appropriate authorities!
Georgejungle
Posts: 354
Date Joined: 25/03/09
Paully how can sea rescue
Paully how can sea rescue identify the boat????. Im pretty sure he got the name of the boat just doesn't want to name them which is fair enough.
sea-kem
Posts: 15002
Date Joined: 30/11/09
I think what Paully's saying
I think what Paully's saying is that the skipper of the charter would probably have logged in with them before leaving. So a time and approximate bearing logged in.
Love the West!
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
Thanks mate
you are right, next time I'll break it down a bit more - so I dont upset people.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8671
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Log in
You will find that pro and charter boats rarely log in to the sea rescue. The only one I've found that does it is Aldo on Top Gun 2 when he leaves for his weekly trip out to the islands off Carnarvon and does daily reports on where his is anchoring each evening.
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
Interesting - I just assumed they would register
like all others, I guess though it would be harder for them to protect their ground if they did log on, not that I'm suggesting that is the reason they don't. thanks
bradz
Posts: 693
Date Joined: 29/10/07
Same
I had a very similar thing happen to me a few weeks ago while fishing off Trigg. Same charter company if it starts with "M" and ends with "ills".
I had the sea anchor out and the bastard drove about 20m from me at a good 18knots. Didnt change course and I couldnt see anyone on the bridge. Asshole.
I did then the best that I knew how. When I knew better, I did better.
doublej
Posts: 169
Date Joined: 08/07/09
Auto pilot
He would be on the back deck scratching his ass while cruising out on auto pilot.
Id follow it up, especially when you had your boy on board.
Jason P
Posts: 521
Date Joined: 16/02/13
The last charter I went on
The last charter I went on the captain left it on autopilot for about five mintues with no one at the helm. Bloody cowboy he was and was also from Hillarys but a different charter.
DM306
wangler
Posts: 607
Date Joined: 26/04/08
This is the only mob
I will ping on purpose, I have had heated discussions a few times on the high seas because of their antics over the years
enough said......
Want to make someone mad... tell a lie! Want to get the world upset... tell the TRUTH !
Dougie
choc
Posts: 670
Date Joined: 05/01/12
Did you try to let them know
Did you try to let them know on your two way?
Mick C
Posts: 607
Date Joined: 26/12/13
Let's See What They Say
Thank you for all of the input on this. There is no doubt about the company and the boat now. I have sent them a link to the post and a request as to how they will deal with the current unsafe boating practices employed by their staff. If anything can be achieved for this experience, it is that it does not happen again. I will be interested in the reply, but there is a high probability of a formal complaint to DOT because if we didn't deal with it at the time we would have been "statistics".
Ability is what you are capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it - LH.
petermac
Posts: 2946
Date Joined: 03/03/10
if he missed you by 100m
if he missed you by 100 meters you are lucky , i have had a knob roger chuck his pick in then swing around on it when it got ground and bang into my boat (of dampier) , also had useless fisheries boat skipper smack a nice dent in the starbard bow of my boat out on the five fathom bank
Vinesh87
Posts: 2751
Date Joined: 02/04/11
Lol was that your boat? club
Lol was that your boat? club marine insurance inspected at chivers?
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Please put in a formal complaint
By doing so you might just save some ones life. Unfortunately a lot of charter companies will hire the cheapest person they can get to do the skippering, now whilst all businesses strive to keep the overheads low (if you want to stay in business) there is a limit on how cheap do you go. The old saying if you pay peanuts you get monkeys is (in my opinion quite true) some of the people I have seen on vessels who claim to have class five tickets scare the hell out of me and I wouldn't feel safe with them in command of a plastic duck in a bath.
If you cast your mind back a few years there was a case of a cray boat skipper having his vessel on auto pilot whilst he was attending a matter in the engine room with the decky and the boat ran over a tinnie and killed a young kid. What happened to the skipper, he got a slap on the wrist. If it comes down to what you would do to preserve your own and your passengers life then everything is as they say on the table. If it's night I'll give you a laser beam straight into your wheel house, if it's day time I'll give you a rocket flare straight onto your forecastle no if not buts no apologies I value my life over yours.
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
+1
Exactly what i think, regardless of any feed back from the boat or company in question, make a formal report. At the very least It will be there for future reference when they do finally run into some poor soul.
tim-o
Posts: 4657
Date Joined: 24/05/11
Need a waterproof battery
Need a waterproof battery drill, go for a dive in the marina
I am, as I've said, merely competent. But in an age of incompetence, that makes me extraordinary.
Auslobster
Posts: 1901
Date Joined: 03/05/08
Or...
...about 10 meters of 20mm chain hanging off his prop shaft...wait til he puts it into gear...
eziliving
Posts: 875
Date Joined: 30/12/09
Get busy living, or get busy dying!
scubafish
Posts: 962
Date Joined: 15/08/12
Forms
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/marine/MAC_F_MarineIncidentReport.pdf
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/marine/MAC_F_MarineSafetyComplaint.pdf
http://img.gg/BQ91Sys
Mick C
Posts: 607
Date Joined: 26/12/13
WA Rules for Collision Avoidance
Given that I have had no response from the company of interest, I have reviewed the applicable laws in relation to “a great big commercial boat running down a small boat at anchor”. Common sense says you can’t do it but the relevant governing laws are set by the Western Australian Marine Act 1982, and more particularly the Prevention of Collisions at Sea Regulation 1983. For those with any interest in sections of regulations (not many I’m sure), I have set out below the provisions of the relevant regulation. As so many members have suggested that I do lodge a formal complaint, I needed to know the specific rules as any indictment would need to list these.
5. Master responsible for compliance with regulations
The person charged with the responsibility to comply with these regulations in relation to a vessel is the master, officer or person in charge of the navigation, management or working of the vessel and the master, officer or person in charge of the vessel shall not delegate that responsibility to an unqualified person.
Rule 2 — Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
Rule 5 — Look out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
Rule 6 — Safe speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:
(a) By all vessels:
(i) the state of visibility;
(ii) the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
(iii) …………..etc.
Rule 7 — Risk of collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
Rule 8 — Action to avoid collision
(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close quarters situation.
(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel shall slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.
(f)………..
Rule 18 — Responsibilities between vessels
Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:
(a) A power driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv) a sailing vessel.
So, section 5 says that the Master is responsible. Rule 2 says all persons can’t neglect responsibility. Rule 5, Rule 6, Rule 7, Rule 8 and Rule 18 have clearly been breached in the situation described.
I don’t know if all the effort is worth it or what the penalties are but I thought I would review the rules and publish them for members interest (if there is any?). Also, if I do lodge a complaint then I know the basis for such. I note the recent post by scubafish pointing me to the forms that I couldn't find - thanks.
Ability is what you are capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it - LH.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
reading your post again,
reading your post again, you've said that you had all your lights on both side and anchor and were not actually anchored.
Which side light would he have seen? If a green light and a white light above it were showing to him, whether you were moving or not he may have thought he was the standon vessel and it makes no difference if you were making way or not?
Many small vessel have an anchor light that doubles as a "steaming" light.
Regardless though, every master has an obligation to avoid a collision whether standon or giveway and you did exactly the right thing no matter whether he could see your green or red sidelight.
COLREGS are certainly a little confusing on this.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Butters29
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 28/03/13
Rule 18 hasn't been breached
Rule 18 hasn't been breached as I'm sure at the time you weren't displaying the lights/day shapes for a vessel engaged in fishing if that is what you are alluding to? None of the other points in rule 18 apply to you.
In your post you said you were displaying lights of a power driven vessel whilst fishing? As you didn't have an anchor down but were 'under power' from your Minn Kota you were tech underway and making way. If you had your anchor down you should have had your sidelights off. You then could have displayed an all round white light or if you are a vessel less than 7m in length (not in a channel/anchorage) you don't have to display any lights at anchor. See rule 30 part b, e.
Depending on which side of the other vessel you were (his port side) you may have been the giveaway vessel according to the rules? Although even if the other vessel is the stand on vessel, they must if the risk of collision is apparent take action to avoid collision.
I'm not condoning the actions of the charter boat in anyway ( I had one cut across my bow out of Broome 6 months ago, too close for comfort) but maritime law is a very tricky subject, Colregs are written in such away that no matter who seems to be at fault in a collision blame will be shared by all involved. Saying that the percentage of damages would be awarded on the basis of who is deemed to be at greater fault.
Its a hard call without all the facts to whom is at fault. In any case you did the right thing by getting out of his way. I still work by the unwritten rule 'might has right' if self preservation is at stake.
Good luck with it, I'll be interested to hear the outcome of this.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
we were typing the same
we were typing the same thing at the same time, but I agree.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Mick C
Posts: 607
Date Joined: 26/12/13
Excellent Post
I am constantly amazed by the knowlwdge of members of this site. I completely agree that Rule 18 wasn't breached and my analysis was based without the detailed knowledge of lights required for fishing. I am now much more informed about this, and generally.
I don't think I was actually on any side of the approaching vessel as he was bearing down on me the whole time I had it in view. Nice technicality about the Minn Kota too. I note that sunrise ocurred at 6.31am on Saturday and the incident was at about 6.45am so I guess the light issue is a non-issue in a technical sense?
Thanks again.
Ability is what you are capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it - LH.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
you may missed a little
you may have missed a little there Mick, not what side of him you were on but which side of you he could see, as follows
picture if you are sitting in his chair, and he could (say) see your red and white, to the LEFT of his course.
He would have every reason to expect you were no danger to him and moving away from a possible close quarters situation.
If you were on the RIGHT (stb) side of his course showing him a red he would expect you to be moving across his bow with you having ROW and hence should avoid you.
If he could see your green and white, he would be expecting to be the stand on vessel and have ROW.
If he could only see your white, he would be expecting you to be either very small , anchored (physically) or moving in the same direction (and hence he is overtaking).
The last 2 he must yield to you, the first he must take care not to swamp you.
Getting really technical (sorry!) lets say he could see either of your sidelights but you were REVERSING quickly-would probably come under the area of making an unexpected manoever in a close quarters situation which is definitely a no-no.
The sunrise situation you have mentioned though may present something different again!
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Mick C
Posts: 607
Date Joined: 26/12/13
Good Points
You learn something every day and sorry for not being clearer, and it shows how technical the whole issue can be. I do believe the sunrise issue is a key consideration and in actual fact I probably should of had no lights on - and certainly not the side lights, although as you point out having the Minn Kota operational is technically underway although the spot lock gerally restricts movement to 10m or less in good conditions.
It was blowing SW on Saturday morning so he would have seen my red and white light heading seaward. From the time I first saw him he was bearing down and whether I was right or left to him initially would depend on the course he took navigating the reef. Nevertheless, if he was watching me he would have noted that we were near stationary. I certainly also sent a number of warning signals by high powered spot light as he was approaching but there was no change of course or speed. I am glad I followed the guidance note in the RST workbook that states:
Responsibility - Everyone has a responsibility to avoid collisions so, even if the rules require another vessel to keep out of your way, you must be ready to take action yourself;
and I think that this is really the key message. All in all, I believe there is probably a case to answer in relation to breaches of Rules 5, 6, 7 and 8, although some mittigating circumstances may exist in confusion over lights (that were on when they didn't need to be).
I certainly appreciate your considered analysis.
Ability is what you are capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it - LH.
Alan James
Posts: 2224
Date Joined: 30/06/09
Technically underway
Others here are far more knowledgeable than I however I recall reading that you are technically underway unless you are anchored. Even though you maybe drifting along with the engine(s) off you are still considered to be underway and are therefore responsible for getting out of the way of sail craft, that being to topic of the discussion I read.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
absolutely correct Alan, and
absolutely correct Alan, and even then in daylight its entirely possible that another vessel will not see if you are anchored unless you show the correct dayshape.
Similar with yachts, many think if they have sails up they have right of way-if you can see their exhaust spitting out water, they definitely do not and this is an important point when you exit/enter Freo Fishing Boat Harbour and tangle with yacths coming out under sail BUT with engine running.
But Mick has it in one, if there is any doubt caution must prevail and EVERY person in charge of a vessel has an obligation to avoid a collision whether stand on or yielding.
Mick did all the right things in his actions, other than maybe thinking he was considered anchored but still showing sidelights.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Butters29
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 28/03/13
Leaving your lights on day or
Leaving your lights on day or not isn't a problem, displaying the correct lights for what you are doing at the time is what's required. We don't turn nav lights off during the day on ships unless we need to due to the nature of work, at anchor or in port.
I don't know of any small vessels that carry day shapes as per the rules.
The best approach is to don't trust anyone and be prepared to avoid a close quarters situation like you did.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
no, they dont-but if its not
no, they dont-but if its not obvious you are anchored such as hanging sideways in current or even hanging from a stern cleat for whatever reason then the trouble can start.
Incidentally, a crab net hung by its edge resembles a black ball (anchor dayshape) and a basket for fishing-not strictly legally but practically if on a bigger boat.
But who wants to go to those lengths to stand your ground if out having fun
Interesting debate for sure, pm sent Butters
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Butters29
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 28/03/13
It would seem so, did we
It would seem so, did we have the same lecturer??
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
couldnt tell ya, but Mike
couldnt tell ya, but Mike Brown did my orals and knew the right simple nav light questions to ask that tripped almost everyone!
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
iana
Posts: 652
Date Joined: 21/09/09
Thanks for the interesting topic.
Thanks for the interesting topic Mick C, it has been good to read a topic that has brought interest, and sensible replies.
One of the projects I have in the que is a series of small one page laminated notes within easy reach, of things I need to know.
I fully realise that when a big boat/ship is bearing down on you, it is not the time to take up reading. But when idle at any stage one can review the rules, and if by chance the skipper is indisposed, and any anyone else has to drive then the notes would come in handy.
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18032
Date Joined: 11/03/08
not good at all.weather they
not good at all.
weather they had the vessel on auto pilot or not , to my understanding of the rules , someone should be at the helm at all times .
i have been out with this charter a couple of times and after the skipper ran aground heading into rotto i wont be going out on them again, ok it was a while ago now but still a careless skipper that didnt know where he was going.
good that you got out of the way in time, a big boat like that one would hurt a bit
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
crasny1
Posts: 7003
Date Joined: 16/10/08
RobH and others
What is the situation if you have a sea-anchor out. Its not very easy to get underway quick then. You are not truely "anchored" but you arent "free" to manuevre quickly.
I would have thought that in this situation others would have to give way. Am I wrong in this assumption with the rules???
Neels
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18032
Date Joined: 11/03/08
my understanding of the rules
my understanding of the rules would be any vessel that is under way must alter their course away from any veel that is at anchor or stationary. however with all lights showing in this situation it may have been hard to judge other than the smaller boat was barely moving if he was at drift
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
crasny1
Posts: 7003
Date Joined: 16/10/08
Thats what I thought
But with the above discussion if you arent anchored (light on or not) you are "underway". With a sea-anchor it is not very easy to suddnely have to maneuvre.
PS: BLOODY INTERESTING DISCUSSION THIS WITH LEVEL HEADS AND GREAT INFORMATION TO CLARRIFY A GRAY BUT VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION.
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
you are only considered to
you are only considered to be anchored if you are physically anchored to the bottom, and of course it must be obvious to another vessel that you are.
In a commercial vessel this is a white all round light or a dayshape (black ball in the rigging) or a VHF call
Sea anchor-once again commercially you could have a day shape up either "unable to manoever" or a basket "fishing operation" (these are generally only used by a commercial operation though and Butters will be more up on the technicalities than me)
Other than that, as noted by others you are either anchored to the bottom or under way (not necessarily "making way")
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Butters29
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 28/03/13
Jesus the sea anchor topic is
Jesus the sea anchor topic is a curly one!
Yes you are 'underway' if not at anchor, made fast to the shore or aground.
The rules state that a power driven vessel must give way to;
A vessel NUC ( not under command) ie; steering failure/ engine failure can't manoeuvre as required
A vessel RAM (restricted in their ability to manoeuvre) ie; because of the nature of their work
A vessel engage in fishing ie; has nets, trawling or other gear fishing gear that restricts their ability to manoeuvre. But this doesn't apply to trolling or simply having a line over the side.
Last but not least sailing vessels, but as Rob has stated before if they have sails up and their engine running for propulsion they become a power driven vessel according to the rules. That
back to the sea anchor question........ Yes you maybe restricted to manoeuvre, but to what extent??? Can you still drive up on the anchor and lift it, can you drive off on the anchor and tow it?
If you go down that path then you must display the correct lights/shapes otherwise it is not clear to others that you are actually RAM. Plus the term RAM refers to vessel being so due to the nature of their work.
In my opinion I think it's drawing a long bow to say you are RAM on a small vessel with a sea anchor out. It doesn't take that long to bring the anchor in and with maintaining a proper and effective lookout you should assess that the risk of collision exist early and must take action to avoid collision.
I recommend that you download a copy of COLREGS and have a look. It'll explain the rules as have been adopted by the International Maritime Organization (IMO) and give definitions of the fishing vessel, NUC etc. I would think someone has been naughty and scanned it for others on the web might be worth a read if you are interested.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Colregs
note-I am a little out of touch with the nitty gritty on the Colregs, so any knowledgable person feel free to correct or contradict what Ive written.
There are others on here better versed than me, but maybe like me often tend to stay out of this sort of thread due to the emotions-Mick C has taken it all onboard with grace and conducted his thread perfectly I reckon.
The RST only covers the very basics and I hate to use the term "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" but those who have been at sea a while will know that overconfidence is far more dangerous than overcautious-professional or Rec.
So be careful if standing your ground, without knowing the correct lights/shapes/sounds for (say) vessel towing, restricted manoeverability, vessel aground, pilot boat/ferry etc you can very quickly find yourself in an escalating situation with dire consequences especially around Gage Roads/Cockburn Sound
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
crasny1
Posts: 7003
Date Joined: 16/10/08
I totally agree
with the comments about MicK-C. We can only learn from situations.
However it does appear that the commercial skipper should have manuevred to avoid a collision, as this is the ultimate aim, Colreg's or not.
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
sea-kem
Posts: 15002
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Aside form Mick's dilema,
Aside form Mick's dilema, there's something in it for all of us. Thanks for the superb info Butters and Rob, I definitely learnt a thing or two.
Love the West!
crasny1
Posts: 7003
Date Joined: 16/10/08
- Yip. Is a great thread
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
Billcollector
Posts: 2080
Date Joined: 16/05/09
Anchored or not there are
Anchored or not there are rules regarding how close you are legally allowed to another vessel whilst underway and by the sounds of the OP the charter either wasn't paying attention or is just an arsehole. Lodge a complaint with DoT as it might not be the only time it has occurred with the said vessel.
Rob H
Posts: 5806
Date Joined: 18/01/12
mostly those rules on how
mostly those rules on how close are suitably vague, even as far as a dive flag is concerned. You can idle past an anchored boat at 3 meters if at a safe speed as far as I recall.
Ultimately he did have an obligation to manoever safely no matter who was right.
There is also the sun which would have been behind the boat into the back of the wheelhouse etc (also his responsibilty to allow for)
Most big bulk carriers cant see the water in front closer than about a 1000 meters or so, very relevant in Cockburn Sound/Hedland/Dampier.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Butters29
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 28/03/13
Yelp big ships have blind
Yelp big ships have blind spots in front. The gas buggies out from Dampier are the worst with their domes as are container ships. It's not wise to cut in front of them at close quarters, plus it makes all on the ships bridge very nervous.
I know there has been talk about failing to keep a proper lookout according to the rules (with regards to the charter vessel) It's worth noting that ships are a place of work and as such all the rubbish that goes with it (paper work, paper work and more bloody paper work). During the day light hours the OOW might be doing a dozen things as well as maintaining a watch. If they don't them things just wouldn't get done. Some carry chart folios for the world and updating them is a full time job in it's self.
So my point is, even if you have right of way by the rules and are displaying the correct lights/shapes assume that the OOW on the ship steaming at you hasn't seen you (small vessels make very poor radar targets and are hard to spot on any sort of chop) and be ready to take action yourself. I know it's no excuse for failing to keep a proper lookout but that's the reality unfortunately.
axey45
Posts: 1758
Date Joined: 26/11/13
Have a look in the small
Have a look in the small ships manual, thats what we used when i did my [Certificate of nautical fishing] at freo maritime collage. Has all rules n regs.
kmo
Posts: 127
Date Joined: 17/01/12
Limited ability to manouvre
I thought I remembered being told that the dive "Alpha " flag actually indicated that you had "limited ability to manouvre", however I can't find a reference for it now. Even if this isn't true and regardless of legality, perhaps it would be an idea to fly a dive flag if you are not able to get clear of a collision due to a sea anchor or even a bottom anchor and don't carry all of the signals that a commercial vessel does. At least Joe Blow in his gin palace would know to avoid you, let alone a commercial skipper.
crasny1
Posts: 7003
Date Joined: 16/10/08
I dont think you can display
any flag if you are NOT undertaking that activity. But not sure.
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
carnarvonite
Posts: 8671
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Small ships manual
Displaying the Alpha flag or single letter flag denotes ===I have a diver down, keep well clear at slow speed
To my knowledge it is an offence to display it if you don't have a diver down
Mick C
Posts: 607
Date Joined: 26/12/13
Thank You All
I would like to thank all contributors to the post. Who ever thought you would learn so much from the many knowledgeable responses - particularly from Rob H and Butters29. I am in no way offended by anything written here and am a lot better off for the experience.
I am still unsure if I should bother lodging the marine safety complaint - kindly pointed out by scubafish. I feel that something should be done so that at least the skipper will be made aware that he has to look out and be aware, but the bureaucracy may be significant. The fact that I have received no response from the company makes me think that they have not taken the issue seriously though. I note there are 7 days in which to lodge the form so I would have to do it this week and perhaps I just print this thread, attach it to the filled out form and see what happens?
Ability is what you are capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it - LH.
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18032
Date Joined: 11/03/08
why not phone the company and
why not phone the company and make them more aware of what happened if they then do nothing about it , take it further.
if ithas happened to you , hopw many others have been in the same boat ,
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
Butters29
Posts: 53
Date Joined: 28/03/13
I take my hat off to you Mick
I take my hat off to you Mick you've been bombard with differing opinions from many on here with the rights/wrongs of the actions of the charter vessel and yourself. But you have replied always with a good outlook and hopefully you/others will have a better grasp of things if you are placed in the same situation again.
It seems to me like one of the only threads that has sparked debate but hasn't gone down the path of name calling (the charter boat skipper being the exception!!!).
It can't hurt to make a complaint with Dopi, there are laws governed by the state body which I'm out of touch with. They might make some inquiries into it and the bloke that was driving might just lookout the windows a bit more in future. If you do make the complaint let us know how you go.
Shark1
Posts: 1086
Date Joined: 21/05/12
can also complain to
can also complain to waterpolice will be handled faster than DOT
as stated u had running lights on if he saw your stb green - he had right of way
a single all round white is what u needed -anchored(vessel under 12m) or a ball shape as a day shape-however u weren't anchored as stated, but easier to say u were about to anchor/ just pulled anchor than explaining why u flying a dive flag with no dive gear onboard
Rule 2 — Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
all the rules are on the DOT marine website
http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/main_mrtitle_1944_homepage.html
sea-kem
Posts: 15002
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Will this just come down to
Will this just come down to a he said she said situation? I'd love to see nothing better than the book thrown at them for gross negligence but you will need witnesses I'm afraid Mick. I think this will come down to being one of those situations where it been a big heads up for us all to keep a bloody good look out at all times and don't assume.
Love the West!