Tow vehicle
Submitted by DanM on Sun, 2019-04-28 21:34
Hi there, I need to upgrade the old hzj75 as a tow vehicle and am looking at either a 2004 Lexus lx470 (4.7petrol v8) or a newer Isuzu mux 2014 3 litre turbo diesel. My boat is a 6m Haines hunter at approx 2600kg. Is there anyone currently towing with these vehicles of similar weight? Any feedback would be appreciated, cheers.
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
If it comes down to fuel
If it comes down to fuel usage the Petrol Lexus will be pushing the high 25/30 LPH when towing distance. The TD will be better on fuel figures
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
I think if I do 3 north
I think if I do 3 north trips a year won't break the bank, it's more of the better tow vehicle for the job. I'm really trying to find what motor will pull it better up hills and cope with boat,gear and passengers heading north. Cheers
Billcollector
Posts: 2006
Date Joined: 16/05/09
Then for the rest of the time
Then for the rest of the time not towing you will get 20+ ltrs to 100 ks Thirsty as all hell go a diesel.
marble
Posts: 773
Date Joined: 03/09/09
Except a diesel is 15 to 20
Except a diesel is 15 to 20 k dearer to buy
PMY 25 Centre Console DF300 Suzuki
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
And sells for that later
And sells for that later equally and usually quicker as well
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
is there any reason you are
is there any reason you are not looking at colorado/rangers? the dmax of those sorts of years are lacking in the torque dept.
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
A friend of mine has a
A friend of mine has a ranger and has had some gearbox issues so that's put me off ,also a wagon will suit my needs better with access, security and having a toddler cheers.
Dale
Posts: 7930
Date Joined: 13/09/05
We are looking getting a caravan soon and I’ve been eying off the Ford Everest. Built on the ranger chassis and drive line but much nicer inside. Has a 3000kg tow rating. Here’s a review they did with it against the Prado.
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/ford-everest-2018-review-111758?tracking=dsa&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4dyAi8304QIV1BqPCh2VxA8dEAAYASAAEgKQR_D_BwE
"Just because you are a Character, Doesn't mean you have Character."
Mr Wolf
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Ive been looking at these as
Ive been looking at these as well, but price isnt a long way short of a 200...
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
I have seen some Saharas and
I have seen some Saharas and Lexus around the 25k figure particularly over east with 150km, but it's making sure the vehicle has been looked after.
dmck
Posts: 406
Date Joined: 07/03/19
BT50 option
My 2012 BT50 is unbreakable.
All parts have Ford labels.
Just SH body panel looks....
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Unbreakable?
Riding in one today, bloke bought it with under 100k on the clock. Replaced his totally reliable hilux, which he thought was getting a bit long in the tooth. FOUR, yes Four major engine failures in something like 6 weeks. Very lucky he bought from a dealer. He wasn't even getting it home to Kalbarri before it failed. Turbo/engine/turbo/another engine. So they replaced everything, and it is still ok after a 1000 k's. Unbreakable ?Not according to him.
dano83
Posts: 790
Date Joined: 25/05/12
100 series is a fuel guzzler
100 series is a fuel guzzler my misso drives ours and boy does it drink,
maybe an old hz79 can get em cheap and they have 3.5 ton towing
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
Yeah the figures are up
Yeah the figures are up there, altho I'm pretty lucky having my work 8km away- do you tow a boat with it, if so how does it go?
scano
Posts: 1246
Date Joined: 31/05/07
V8 petrol 100 series
Or the Lexus as you made mention. For the difference in price between one of those and a turbo diesel hdj100r, you would get a lot of years of almost free fuel. Plus the v8 petrol 100 series motors have plenty of poke. For the money you spend buying a half descent one (about $20k) you would be hard pressed to find a better tow vehicle.
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
Yes definitely pros and cons
Yes definitely pros and cons with petrol and diesel, every diesel I've looked at has over 300 on the clock and they still want 40k
Silver Fox
Posts: 1097
Date Joined: 19/06/14
Hunt for a TD 100 series
Im a little biased here .
Got a 75 series diesel yoot as my boat dragging mobile ( 400 meters to the ramp . Can’t seem to get past third gear ! ) and a 100 series Sahara with the 1Hdfte in it as the caravan dragger . Yes there are some mean hills between Perth and Exmouth but for a 14 hour trip there’s maybe only five minutes of cussing and swearing wishing you had a better tow vehicle ! . The Ute has been in my stable for fifteen years and it’s uncomfy as all fuck and a bit of a slug on the road , yet a set of extractors and a snorkel makes it a reliable tow vehicle capable of sitting on a hundred all day every day for a pretty good diesel burn . The Sahara is a completely different beast and there’s a reason why they still command decent money for high kilometre examples . Save some more loot , have a good hunt around and a decent car will pop up eventually. I looked for twelve months and picked up mine for 53k with 140 k on the clock . Four years later it’s only done 183k !
My wife understands why I clean my rods n reels in the shower....
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
I agree! I've had my 75 ute
I agree! I've had my 75 ute for 17 years and have extractors,snorkel exhaust but as soon as I put the 33's tyres on it,lost all the benifits,absolutely awesome and reliable 4wd in bush but yes I can't get it outer 3rd towing up to 2 rocks. Cheers
Silver Fox
Posts: 1097
Date Joined: 19/06/14
Haaaa
Get some some split rims for long runs ! . The rubber meeting the road would equate to half of what you’re running at the moment . May not look half as sexy buts it’s a hell of a lot more efficient...:)
My wife understands why I clean my rods n reels in the shower....
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
33's are for looks, kill performance.
If I were looking at spending the money on a new bus, I'd be looking at the RAM 1500, tbh. Start at $80k for the Express version, which has a longer bed (6'5" ) as well as a back seat which is still bigger than any other dual cab, with cloth trim. 4.5 tonne towing with the 3.92 diff ratio. And performance with the 5.7 Hemi which will murder any of the other contenders, with a very well regarded 8-speed auto. Fuel? No more thirsty than any of the other high end contenders, with a 120 litre tank. And with the cost of diesel servicing, and a generally higher cost of diesel over regular unleaded, diesel is looking less attractive, in new vehicles, all the time. if you have DPF, and it goes bad repairs can cost you very dearly indeed.
Of course, it'll be even harder to park than a 200...
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Ive got a good mate in Gero
Ive got a good mate in Gero who has recently bought one (dual cab 5.7) and tows 7.2M.
Previously VDJ200 and tows to Shark Bay regularly.
His figures concur with yours
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
swabio
Posts: 32
Date Joined: 03/04/17
we have a 2016 Y62 Patrol,
we have a 2016 Y62 Patrol, 5.7l Petrol V8. It is great as a tow rig.
Fuel useage, around town and not being very kind with the right foot, we generally average around 14-16 per hundred. Highway depending on load and terrain 12-15 /100, towing a 6m quinnie freedom sport, around 18-20. I sit on the speed limit, and do not baby it, as I must admit I do enjoy the spritely performance of the V8....
I have driven a shed load of 200's through work. I reckon they are a good car, just way over priced, and having towed with them, I'd prefer the Y62. Real world fuel comparision is pretty much the same. You can pick up a brand new Y62 for around 65k drive away for the Ti.
DanM
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 05/04/18
they are a beatiful rig,
they are a beatiful rig, would have been my preferred choice however the price tag is holding me back at this stage cheers Swabio.
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
Your probably the only y62
Your probably the only y62 owner that can tow and claim those fuel figures. You only have to put a 6x4 box trailer on them and you'll be in the 20s
swabio
Posts: 32
Date Joined: 03/04/17
Didn't take long to realise
Didn't take long to realise you are a LC200 owner ;)
That towing was between Perth and Shark Bay, return.......
around town boat towing, yup it'd be higher..... I have had the joy of towing with the 200 series, both petrol and diesel, and i quite like them too. Difference is when it came to buy my own, I went for the Patrol, as it was IMHO a hell of a lot better value than a cruiser. I am definitely not a cruiser hater, nor am I a patrol fiend, but bang for buck, i reckon they are a good buy. There is also a fairly decent difference between the 2013 Y62 and the current series as far as fuel consumption goes. Don't take my word on the towing though....
We tested two different trailers behind the Patrol: firstly a 2.75 tonne trailerboat supplied by Webb Marine in Kirrawee NSW and then a 2720kg Jayco Silverline Outback loaned to us by the guys at Jayco Sydney in St Marys NSW.
The trailerboat had a 300kg towball download, and with it on the Patrol rose 17mm at the front and dropped 75mm at the rear. With 180kg of the Jayco’s coupling weighing down on it, the Patrol dropped 25mm at the back but front suspension height was unaltered from unladen.
We only towed the boat a relatively short distance around town, with plenty of stop-start work. Even though we didn’t bury the right foot, fuel consumption exceeded 30L/100km. We wondered if this was a sign of things to come (with the Jayco caravan, for which we planned a 150km towing loop). Last time we tow-tested a Y62 in 2013, it had averaged 28L/100km towing a 2500kg caravan.
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
Are those figures right....
Are you saying that 30L/100km and 28L/100km is "surprisingly light on fuel" or am I reading this wrong. They are terrible figures for relatively light loads (compared to 3.5T that a lot of us tow)
swabio
Posts: 32
Date Joined: 03/04/17
nope, that was the article,
nope, that was the article, missed the link.
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/nissan-patrol-ti-l-2018-review-112390/
the 28 / 30 per 100km test was an around town, stop start test apparently, and the original 2013 model which has a slightly different engine set up.
Although, I haven't towed 3.5t with my patrol, so can't comment on the performance at that weight.
Other guys with Y62s seem to have comparable consumption rates as the 200's. My point was more aimed at the 6x4 box trailer comment and i put the test with the 150km loop they did with the van, as a more appropriate comparison to my original statement. It would have been nice if they gave the figures for the boat over that loop also.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
I reckon it's time to start talking about "towing 3.5 tonne"
Because very few vehicles that can " tow 3.5 tonne", actually legally can. Unless you have had an upgrrade, and you can't do that anymore after the vehilce has been first registered. Maybe time for a separate thread on this, so many misconceptions.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Y 62s are fine
The first 2 generations of them were thirsty, gen 3 and on are definitely improved, major engine changes. Our local mechanic up here is running one, loves it. Sure, it can drink--if you are using the horses you need to feed them. V8 petrol note is addictive, as we all know, and thats the cause of most fuel consumption with them. Drive normally, they are quite acceptable. Over on the Patrol forum, looked at some real world results, one owner had done 34000k, 10000 k of it towing , left one trip meter on from new, has averaged 15.1 l/100km. This is a gen 4. BTW, the first two generations were known for having highly inaccurate trip fuel consumption readouts, they were actually showing more, a lot more, than you were actually using. Manual calculations showed them markedly better. Time spent idling just throws them out badly, for some reason, they default to 40km/l, then that goes into the overall figure.
Then people go on about torque, and start quoting numbers showing that the Patrol puts out its max torque at 4000rpm vs a 200 at what, 2000? What they DON'T see, or care to see, is that the big petrol engine had 80% of its torque available from under 2000rpm, so the torque curve is effectively much wider. You don't get that sudden, early, breathless peak common to all diesels, that running out of grunt too soon. And, sorry to say, 300 kw will out accelerate 200kw, loaded or not, every day of the week.
And the most recent towing comparison tests I've seen show the 2018 Patrol (gen 4) gets the same as a LC 200 diesel , although it needs Premium, so you lose the price advantage that Regular always has over Diesel, something you need to factor in, or that aspect of the diesel vs petrol argument is skewed. So there is a bit more to it than many will say.
Matty05
Posts: 28
Date Joined: 10/05/10
I just did Exmouth and return
I just did Exmouth and return with my MY13 Grand Cherokee, 3.0 Diesel. 6m Haines Signature on the trailer, 3 on board and all the fishing gear, food and camping gear for 2 weeks.
Trip computer told me approx 17l per hundred was being consumed, I didnt bother working out the figures the old school way. We cruised between 95 - 100km per hour, dropping a few kph on the big hills.
Only things I will change for the next trip is a larger trans cooler and load assist bags in the rear suspension.
I suspect the Isuzu will do the job but give yourself enough time for a slightly slower trip
Gunnawundai
Posts: 43
Date Joined: 04/04/18
I have a 76 Series
I have a 76 Series Landcruiser and would have nothing else other than a 200 series.
Running at 110 kph it uses 11.8 litres/100klm (8.5 klm/litre)(24MPG for us old fellas)
Obviously towing my 6.2 metre Coraline it uses a bit more around 14 l/100k.
But the best thing is with 600NM of torque it flattens out the hills with little drop off in speed. Yes it has had the ECM remapped.
The downside with the 76 series is that they come manual trans only and are a bit spartan inside. Even so I love mine.
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
They are pretty numbers my
They are pretty numbers my man, is it a standard engine?
Love the West!
Gunnawundai
Posts: 43
Date Joined: 04/04/18
The ECU was remapped I
The ECU was remapped I forget the horsepower figure but it made 601NM of torque on the dyno. It has a 3 inch Manta exhaust and a Marks overdrive fitted. When towing the boat I run in 5th gear direct. It gobbles up hills like a Mack!
The VDJ 76 are expensive like most Toyotas but its a Toyota. I paid 54k for mine( about 4 years ago) with 8k on the clock its done 80k now. Its a keeper. I dont mind getting out to put the hubs in.
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Ah cheers for the feedback,
Ah cheers for the feedback, best thing with Toyota's I guess is the reliabillity. If you can get some good mileage happening then on a winner. I used to have a 75 series ute and the one thing that used to shit me was the turning circle. Apart from that a good workhorse.
I have a new Ranger XLT and will be towing the boat north in a few weeks and am very keen to see how she goes fuel wise, I had a 120L tank installed so can do Gero in one hit then onto Carnarvon as well.
Love the West!
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
$54K?
I obviously haven't looked around enough,I couldn't find one for under $65 (only a few quck online searches) and then it had high K's. And for low K's GXL's i ve seen them in the 90's
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
And buying them, you are in Ram country.
Price-wise anyway, for the 80K driveaway Express. Unless you want some ex-mining or ex-rental high miler, the prices are just eye-watering. And you get an 8-speed auto, much bigger and better interior and ride, bigger tray, more HP, which will cost you more fuel. Can't comment on them offroad, but the extra width would see them scratched up in narrrow tracks. But we are talking tow vehicles here. And 14km/l towing with a 76? I've used them a fair bit, and thats about all I ever get towing nothing. Although I acknowledge the later ones would probably be better with the higher 5th gear . Basically a pretty crude workhorse with a very high price, IMO.
Billcollector
Posts: 2006
Date Joined: 16/05/09
All 70 series whatever the
All 70 series whatever the configuration are agricultural, thirsty and uncomfortable, and way overpriced. I'll stick with my extended 200 , it's comfy goes anywhere and unlike your yank tanks you can get parts anywhere.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
True, dat
And 200's are still bloody pricey unless they have 250k or more on them. I'm sticking with the 4.2TD Patrol ute, extended as well. At least they are bigger and more comfortable than any cruiser ute.
bsir
Posts: 569
Date Joined: 24/04/11
LC200
Just did Coral bay towing 3 tonnes plus the car loaded and a few people (i wouldnt have liked to be put on the scales).
Averaged 22l/100km towing at 102kph (in the 110 zone).
The LC200 is a little thirsty, but certainly doesnt miss a beat through the hills or overtaking.
The old disco3 used about 20l/100, but certainly didnt have the same poke and i wouldnt have sat on 100kph the whoel way (I wouldve spent some time repairing something).
deforce
Posts: 57
Date Joined: 17/11/13
2008 Silverado
towed my 4 ton boat and 4 guys and all the gear to exmouth at a casual 100kmph and more for overtaking and a return of 15 L per 100
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Diesel or petrol?
Vortec or Duramax? guessing Duramax
deforce
Posts: 57
Date Joined: 17/11/13
2008 Silverado
it is a 6.6 Duramax with a Alison auto gearbox
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Yes, ultimate tow vehicles
Any 250/2500 series Ram/Chevy/Ford, with the big diesels.
pelagicyachts
Posts: 1301
Date Joined: 23/02/11
a family member had a f truck
a family member had a f truck (early 2000's) dual cab with the 7.3 power stroke diesel, I used it a few times over the years - yes it has a lot more grunt and it was ok on fuel too - I took it to Gnaraloo towing a ~3t centre console, the big difference I noticed was the hills between Geraldton and Northampton it just ate them compared to my 200s.
However, the build quality is absolute rubbish, they were assembled in Mexico I think and obviously on a Friday. I am sure the newer ones are better but I cant see the value in the older ones - but others do, he bought it new for I think the ~80-90K mark and sold it about 2 years ago with ~230k's on the clock for 55k and had 2 guys arguing over it!
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Ford's were rubbish for a long time
Better now, and sh prices are even more stupid than Toyota's. Better availability new will go some distance towards improving that.
The plain fact that, if you need to tow heavy, you either buy one of them, or a flatbed truck. Keeps sh values up. As I said above, most people towing 3.5 tonnes with their supposedly 3.5 tonnes rated vehicle are not legal.
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
Why do you say that?
Your leaving us all hanging. My boat with full fuel and normal load of gear over the weigh bridge was 3357kg. That's close enough to 3.5T. I tow with a 3.5T rated 100 series turbo diesel Landcruiser and have done since I had the boat built, which is now 16 years ago. What is going to push that over the limit?
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Im sure he will elaborate
Im sure he will elaborate but I suspect he is referring to the fact most newer vehicles cannot legally tow their rated tow capacity while at their GVM, including 100/200 series I think.
As in, their GCM is lower than the sum of their GVM + tow rating.
In my mind Id rather have the flexibility to work it out myself.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Laymans terms, fully loaded
Laymans terms, fully loaded car + boat and trailer weight loaded cannot exceed 3.5T.
Love the West!
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
.
Think you made a typo, assuming we are still talking 3.5T towing, GCM will be much higher, around 6-7 tonnes
For the layman
GVM=Gross Vehicle Mass
GCM=Gross Combination Mass
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
I was reffering to PAX and
I was reffering to PAX and luggage not the car. Isn't that how it works? People and luggage in the car must be taken into account for how much load you can tow?
Love the West!
lextt
Posts: 26
Date Joined: 08/03/12
gvm
one big mastake people make is that they over load the car not trailer.
you said your boat is 3357kg and you tow with 100 series which have payload of 605kg(i think, might be wrong).
so this is where people go wrong, when you hitch trailer to tow vehicle the weight of trailers tow ball become part of your payload.
towball weight shoud be around 10% of trailers weight.
so in your case you shoud have tawball weight around 335kg.
when you hitch your boat to 100 series which has 605kg payload, you have to take 335kg of that which leaves you with 270kg of paylaod.
and every exta that has been put on the car has to be take of the payload. eg if you have arb bull bar, the weight of bullbar has to be taken out of payload. arb bull bar is around 70kg. now you only have 200kg of payload.
same has to be done for evertyhing you add to the car. eg winch, side steps, bigger fuel tank, rear bar, everything you put in cargo area.....
and then passangers are also part of the payload.
so when you add everything up it is every easy to be over ligal limits of the car/4wd.
hope this helps.
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
Boat Weight
So does that mean when you add the 335kg to the 100 series weight, that reduces the overall boat weight by the same figure?
If so, certainly makes sense to load the boat rather than car
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
No it doesnt, as it is 2
No it doesnt, as it is 2 different calculations.
Vehicle load=down force on all 4 axles which includes towball downforce
Towing mass=all trailer axle loads plus towball downforce.
From that you can see that its not quite as simple as just adding the 2 together to get GCM because that would mean the 335kg is counted twice.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
lextt
Posts: 26
Date Joined: 08/03/12
no the boat weigth is still
no the boat weigth is still the same.
the only thing that changes is where the weight has gone from the front of the trailer. when you weigh is it si on jockey wheel but when its hitched to the car it is on the tow ball and therefore part of cars payload.
in a way it does make sense to load up the boat more. because if you put 100kg more in a boat you should only see about 10kg inceras of wight on towball. but thats making sure you get the balance of 100kg spot on for perfect weight distribution. it takes a bit of practice to load up even so that you get that 10% of total weight on towball.
also keep in mind that you have max towball weight as well. on cruiser is 350kg.
it is very easy to overlaod the front or back of the boat. and both can be dangerous when towing.
jighead
Posts: 718
Date Joined: 03/02/12
Thanks
I’m a layman.
scottnofish
Posts: 1617
Date Joined: 28/08/07
with my Colorado
when towing 3.5 ton I can only have a payload of 330 kilos in the car before I exceed the GCM.most people then add bullbar spotlights dual batts fridge .all add up and that's when you start getting over
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
That's what i meant about needing a separarate thread
But we can go on with it here.
As RobH said, there are two things in play. Three if you count issues with overloaded trailers, as many are.
GVM, Gross vehicle weight, is the amount the vehicle can weigh, loaded. This includes you, the wife and kids, and all your accessories fitted. So, with a ute for example, if you have a GVM of 3400kg, you need to weigh it empty, (Tare) then subtract that from 3400kg. Your roo bar, tow bar, extra battery, etc, have all eaten into your payload. Same with any vehicle. I have seen Mine spec landcruisers with an allowable payload of 50kg in the tray. By the time you add the heavy fully-welded tray with ROPS , dual spare wheel cage with drop down unloading system, back-eze electric hoist, roo bar, tow bar, tool boxes, you have eaten up all your previously available payload capacity. And this is not restricted to utes, Ive seen a 76 series with aluminium Bosston canopy be 250kg over with just "normal" gear, not much extra fuel and water. They only have a GVM of 3300. Hilux has 3000.
GCM is the Gross Combined Mass. Total weight of vehicle and trailer. Easy enough concept. We'll stick with the 76 series. It has a GCM of 6800 kg. So that adds up OK. If your vehicle, fully fuelled and loaded with said wife , kids and all your camping gear, does not exceed 3300, yes, you can tow 3500kg. However, if you have overloaded the vehicle, that eats into your allowance. GCM is GCM.
It is where there is a mismatch between supposed 3500 kg towing, and the GCM, that things get sticky, and there are vehicles out there in this category. There are some where you'd better have a skinny wife, and no kids or gear, if you want to tow 3500 as advertised. That's Ok, you say, you can get upgrades done, retrospectively. WRONG. Not any more. Any GVM upgrade must be done before first registration, under a process called SSM. Approved kits, with an engineers approval and plate fixed to the vehicle. Not later on. And you cannot upgrade GCM any more.
A good case in point is the Dodge Ram 1500 Express series, touted as 4500 towing ( on 70mm ball, 3.92 diff) , and 845kg payload. Well, yes, but with a GCM of 7327, GVM of 3330, and a kerb weight which only gives you a total load of 87kg when you have that 4500kg hooked up. Remember, this includes the driver. So, best viewed as a really good 3500-4000 kg rated vehicle, if you want to use that rated payload, some of it, as well. The 2500 series is a different kettle of fish.
I'd encourage you to visit a weighbridge with your vehicle, and boat-quite possibly get a rude shock. Better to have it there than under the merciless glare of the mermaids
You can google all this yourselves, but here are some more examples. Shameless copy and paste
see the problem? If your Ranger is loaded to GVM, easy to do, you can only tow 2800kg.
So remember to look at GCM and GVM of your vehicle. if the total of your supposed towing rating plus GVM exceeds GCM, you are downrated unless you are under the GVM, with what yu have in it at the time. "wow, I have 1089 kg load capacity" maybe, before you put that roo/tow bar, sidesteps, roof rack, and extra battery in.
HTH
pelagicyachts
Posts: 1301
Date Joined: 23/02/11
That's a great explanation,
That's a great explanation, thankyou - another point that I have heard different views on is the weight on the tow ball
By way of example I have a 200s which is (according to the specs) bog stock except 2nd batt and engel) 2740kg kerb weight + say 80kgs for battery, towbar and engel = 2820, GVM of 3350 and GCM of 6850
So that gives me a ~530kg payload but if I am towing my CC which, all in, is ~3 ton I should in theory (assuming 10% weight on towbar) have 300kg of load on the tow bar - because of this, I was of the view that this would reduce my ~530kg payload to 230kg -
correct?
If so - for my Exmouth trips, I would be better loading gear in the boat to say 3400kg, which would only decrease my "car Payload" by 40kg's (340kgs on towball)- or reduce towbar weight by re-distributing weight on trailer - neither are really ideal.....!
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
Yep tow ball weight needs to
Yep tow ball weight needs to be added in to gvm.
pelagicyachts
Posts: 1301
Date Joined: 23/02/11
ripper!So no ARB bullbar
ripper!
So no ARB bullbar (wife will be happy)for the car
If I then take my 190kg pay load, take out family weight (2 adults 2 kids) leaves 4 kilos payload left!...... - I normally have 2 iced coffees in the engel for the trip (drive straight through) say 1 kilo, so I have 3 kilos up my sleeve for fuel.....
Good to know - might not take the boat this year :-(
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
I had been typing out a
I had been typing out a reply but didnt finish, good explanation there.
Effectively, the tow ball weight (200 oddkg) counts in 2 places if you get pulled up and properly checked over
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Yes, forgot to mention that
if you are towing,towball weeight counts in GVM, too.
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
Great summary
Ranmar....thanks.
When I weighed my boat at the Merriwa tip weigh bridge, they also weighed the total combination, the car alone and the boat alone. I remember the boat was 3357kgs, but not the others....have to try and find the dockets
VaSSagO
Posts: 126
Date Joined: 09/12/09
I did the same, was a bit
I did the same, was a bit amazed by the car.
Stock should be 1.86T.. came in at 2.39T with just the driver and 4x4 recovery gear. Does have steel bulbar, canopy, steel cable winch, long range tank, heavy rubber matting to tray.
Boat came in at 2.18T and sits on trailer rated to 2.8T.
GVM is 2900kg, less 2.39kg for car & me, less 200kg tow ball weight = 300kg for passengers & stuff. Not huge amount to play with, better to load up trailer but I highly doubt that is actually safer!
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
You can still get gvm
You can still get gvm upgrades done after first rego
My mate just had his 2014 Ranger done. I was going to go down same path but opted out as dont need it at the moment
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Are you sure about that?
It's one thing to get a kit to"do" it, another to actually get it certified so it's legal.
resurgence
Posts: 573
Date Joined: 23/04/14
May still be possible
Someone with more knowledge than me might chime in, but I think the proposed legislation change last year was eventually modified. I believe (but could be wrong) that they allowed existing SSM’s to continue, but no new SSM approvals will be issued.
rigpig
Posts: 507
Date Joined: 21/11/12
getting GVM upgrade done now
I have a 2002 Nissan Patrol with a Chev 6.5L TD in it. The engine upgrade put the car over its 3000KG GVM. I went back to Brunswick Diesels last week and they are doing the upgrade. It has to have upgraded springs (lovells) to replace the ones that came with the Old Man Emu 2" lift and then it has to be certified by an engineer (they have a specific company they use) and once it is signed off they fix a new plate with upgraded GVM (3500kg) and then re-register it. Again they use another independent person to do the registration for transparency.
I had my 4x4 and 20ft offroad caravan weighed by Perth Caravan Weighing which is a mobile service and they do a DOT approved certifcate. I'm about to tow the van on a long trip and didn't want to get pinged by the cops for being over weight.
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
Afew Important thing here is
Afew Important thing here is knowing what your car weighs unloaded, knowing your gvm and also weight once full loaded. Then knowing your tow ball weight. Then there's the trailer and its actual weight once loaded.
Ultimate 4wd in bibra lake do free car weighing if anyone wants to know there actual vehical weight.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
A minefield, there.
It's one thing to get a kit to"do" it, another to actually get it certified so it's legal.
Ok, went even deeper. All GCM upgrades on New vehicles were banned after June 2018,federal Department of Transport. So you can still do GVM upgrades, but you are effectively eating into your BTC-Braked towing capacity. But, to complicate matters, the interpretation varies from state to state. Yet WA suspensions are still offering GCM upgrades on some vehicles, see here
www.wasuspensions.com.au/gvm/
Then read this, all the way to the bottom. Even after the ban , supposedly, on new vehicle GCM upgrades, Lovells have a SSM certificate for it, but not straightforward. Read the below link all the way to the bottom.
www.bamgarage.com/gcm-towing/gvm-gcm-upgrades/ford-ranger-px/
If you weren't confused before you will be now. Then go into their Towing Upgrades tab, and look at the 200 series upgrades. It's complicated. Doable, and expensive, but possible. Their site give GCM upgrades on some vehicles, after you pay for a GVM upgrade, but not possible on some.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
I'm undergoing this exercise at the moment.
After a long conversation at the caravan show, and a follow up visit, I gave a Toyota salesman a challenge. I wanted a Hilux Extra cab ,(2.8, Auto ) with welded steel tray ( not the meccano set that is standard) to tow 3 tonnes with a payload of 1 tonne , and a specific size tray. This vehicle has a standard GCM of 5650, GVM 3050 and BCT of 3200 . Tare weight 1890. WA Suspension offer a GVM to 3500, and GCM 7000. it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
holth
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 09/10/06
Mate there not kits, there
Mate there not kits, there certified upgrades.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
See my post above.
macca85
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 05/06/11
Just upgraded the gvm on the
Just upgraded the gvm on the 100 series. Absolute mission. Blue plate is in the engine bay ready for pit inspection, and now have to take the drawers out the back to keep it registered as an 8 seater during inspection. End of the day it’s better than having an accident only to have your claim rejected and be left with no toys and a claim against you from the third party.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Would appreciate some info on
Would appreciate some info on who, how and $ if poss?
And are you talking 100 or 105?
Feel free to pm
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
macca85
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 05/06/11
I have a 2005 gxl 100 (ifs).
I have a 2005 gxl 100 (ifs). Bought last year stock as a rock, and soon started ringing around numerous suspension stores asking for gvm upgrades, to which all replied ‘not possible’. Ended up getting a tough dog 2 inch lift with heavy duty springs and airbags anyway (the Grady weighs 3000 without loading up so needed to do something). Knew I was over gvm but every second 4wd on the road is so didn’t think too much of it. Decided 6 months ago to do the big lap with a caravan/ car topper/ wife and 2 kids, which I thought probably needs to be passing weight inspections. Tracked down an engineer who looked at the specs of the suspension upgrade, height, tyres (285’s), and after carry out braking tests etc. increased the gvm to 3600, which was enough for us to pass any weight inspection on the trip. The biggest hurdle then is you need to carry out a pit inspection for the final tick, which in my case meant strip the 1 shade too dark tint and remove the drawers to keep it licenced as an 8 seater (left the seat belts in so drawers had to come out either way). Goes over next week so fingers crossed no other issues are picked up, however everything else is pretty clean.
pain in the arse- yes. Worth it- I think so. Have seen first hand how much a pain the insurers can be (sunshine on here helped me out a few years back with what was my first claim in my life whete they refused to pay).
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Hasnt been over yet?Be great
Hasnt been over yet?
Be great if you could let me know as I would like to do it with my dual cab as well but waslooking too hard.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
macca85
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 05/06/11
Passed the pits yesterday,
Passed the pits yesterday, and final paperwork submitted to the licensing centre today. Now all official! Drawers are now going back in and tint to be booked in again.
The engineer I used was Vlad Diaconita (he is a DoP approved engineer if you look up their list of approved engineers). He will need to know the brand and specs of upgraded suspension system that has been put on the car. Once received you will get a rough proposed upgrade that is possible. From there you will need to meet up for a brake threshold test and pass. If no issues you will receive your blue plate and documents, which will need to be taken with the car to a pit inspection. They will look over your car as if it had a yellow sticker, so if you have mods done that won’t pass you need to rectify (tint and drawers out for 3rd row seats in). Once the pit inspection is passed you then take their paperwork to a licensing centre to update their system (took 5 mins).
cost all up? Engineer will vary I’d say but expect between 650-1500. Pit inspection 140 and obviously whatever you paid for your suspension setup.
hope this helps. Wish someone had done a write up like this to save me some time! Any other questions feel free to ask.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Thanks appreciate it.My dual
Thanks appreciate it.
My dual cab (thread on here) will be going over the pits after engineering but the guy I’m using seems it think it’s to hard to raise gvm.
I’ll contact this guy and see if he can do the lot.
Mine is a 105 not 100 like yours though.
No lane change test for you?
Also, your insurance company, who and what have they said about it? (Some won’t cover)
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
macca85
Posts: 46
Date Joined: 05/06/11
No lane change test (Thought
No lane change test (Thought that was more for approving lifts higher than 50mm but don’t quote me on that), and I told youi and they didn’t seem fussed, so no issues there. Pretty sure Vlad has done a 105 as well, so hopefully the groundwork has been done already. Remember the overall height of the car can’t be more than 50mm higher than factory (mine has a 2 inch lift and 285’’s but is still under the factory threshold).
one thing I didn’t mention is that before you go to the pits you will need to weigh the car and bring the slip to the inspection. This weight will be your new rate weight for the car, which determines how much you pay for rego. Strip the car back of anything you don’t need when you do this (fuel, roof rack, spare tyre etc).
pelagicyachts
Posts: 1301
Date Joined: 23/02/11
time to start running helium
time to start running helium in the 200s tyres.. might increase my payload from 4 kilos to 8...... :-(
Mainey
Posts: 177
Date Joined: 17/09/10
Diesel v Petrol
Get a diesel for their extra towing ability available @ lower revs in whatever brand you like
( Have you ever seen a big 4WD, large truck or a semi-trailer run on anything other than diesel - they do it because the extra tauque available and reliability etc at lower revs)
Drove my first diesel in 1985 and have never bought a petrol since then - is no comparison.
Maîneÿ . . .bradz
Posts: 693
Date Joined: 29/10/07
Short trips
There is little doubt that diesels have better low down torque, but, if you are doing lots of short trips you really arent doing a diesel engine any favours.
Long consistent driving of diesels is where they excel in regards to longevity and reliability.
If you are doing lots of short trips I would not discount a petrol. Cheaper car, cheaper fuel, but not as economical.
I did then the best that I knew how. When I knew better, I did better.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Drove a RAM 1500 today
F**rk yeah. You can take your overpriced 70Xx series cruisers and shove em where the sun don't shine, unless you are into serious bushbashing. Bit more complicated than the motoring press would have you believe--yes, 3.92 diff and pack is required for the 4.5 tonne rating, and yes, they have almost zero payload at that, so best regarded as a 3.5 to 4 tonne tow tug if you want some payload. But the 3.92 costs $8K extra. So the $81K drive away model I drove today, in metallic black, has the 3.21 gears and a 3.5 tonne rating. And the tripmeter shows 12 -13 l/100km at regular highway speeds, so every bit as good as a dual cab cruiser/200, on cheaper ULP. 3.92 diff shows 2/100 worse on normal highway use. Dealer had an interstater in for a service, 15000k in six months mostly towing. Regular towing of a 3 tonne van at 100 shows 20/100. Worst was a strong headwind across the Nullabor, didn't slow down, 25/100 at 100. Back seat is small in the Express, about the same size as most jap dual cabs. But it had a tub over 6 ft long and a 120 litre tank. Towbar and electric brake controller standard. Would be an awesome rig with a 6'6 steel tray and roo bar.
Now, for that powerball...
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Update--did the numbers on the Ram 1500
You can only tow the full 4.5 tonne with a payload of 132kg. . So, really one man and his kit. With a full rated payload of 845kg, you get 3787kg max towing. So you are the same, then, as the average uprated 200 series. With a higher payload. Every KG out of the payload, goes on the towing capacity, to put it simply. if you have 500kg payload, you get 4132 kg towing. So you are still better off with that, than any upgrade you can get on any Cruiser.
I really want one, probably not going to happen. So I went and bought a new steeering wheel cover for the Patrol