bush lawyers
Submitted by walloped on Sun, 2014-05-25 20:14
I've been having a discussion with a fisheries officer about their rights/powers and the following were a source of disagreement.
1. Fisheries ask for permission to board a boat and it is denied...I believe if they persist and board they are close to piracy.
2. Fisheries knock on your door and ask to search yor house...again you deny them permission. What do they need to enforce this right that they do have? Do they need the police to enforce the warrant? Can they smash your door down?
3. I have no reason other than social justice to deny them either...I have nothing to hide but dislike big brother antics.
Cheers, I look forward to the responses.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
also very much interested in
also very much interested in this subject for the same reasons.
Google turned up the following though, 177 onwards is relevant
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_act/frma1994256/
For number 2, only if a/ you give them permission or
b/ they "suspects on reasonable grounds that a person has committed an offence against this Act; and
(ii) has pursued the person without interruption from the place, or near the place, where the offence was suspected to have been committed to the premises.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
walloped
Posts: 191
Date Joined: 08/04/12
So, if a mate of mine, for a
So, if a mate of mine, for a joke, rings up fishereries and makes a spurious claim against me, I am assuming that would constitute reasonable grounds and they can then search the premises.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
not according to the cut and
not according to the cut and paste above "and has pursued..."
My thoughts would be (as others) that if you had nothing to hide then get it over with and have your say after you've proved them wrong.
I'd think they would have to explain their "reasonable grounds" if you asked them beforehand?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
terboz123
Posts: 1358
Date Joined: 13/04/11
if ya got nothing to hide
if ya got nothing to hide why wouldnt you let them check your boat ?
......gotta remember they may not be police & there just doing a job but in reality there doing this for the greater goods of our fishery. Trying to preserve the stocks so there is a future here to fish for many of years.
All my dealings with fisheries have been positive and nothing negative.
a hard days fishing still beats work
PGFC member
GCGFC memberRob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
for sure, agree.But there is
for sure, agree.
But there is nothing wrong at all with knowing what your rights are.
In every walk of life there are dodgy officials who may have an axe to grind sadly including coppers whom you would think are much more stringently vetted.
And people who may impersonate them...
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
robert1979
Posts: 224
Date Joined: 13/05/12
I have been checked last two
I have been checked last two times out. They boarded the boat and checked our catch. Nothing to hide so doesnt bother me. Found them to be friendly and professional. I think they do a very worthwhile and important job..
Swompa
Posts: 3901
Date Joined: 14/10/12
Bingo. I have nothing to
Bingo. I have nothing to hide and have never had a problem with any of them. They are doing an important job.
slugger
Posts: 166
Date Joined: 17/02/11
walloped !
that's what will happen if you ignore their lawful request
sure you can be a smart a..... and tell them to f..o
but you will be charged
nothing to hide, then let them do their job
walloped
Posts: 191
Date Joined: 08/04/12
The point, Slugger, is not
The point, Slugger, is not whether you have anything to hide but are you being bullied. I have been checked over a dozen times without any issues and this will continue as I do try to follow the laws. But, I find it intrusive and, at times, demeaning to be hassled during my recreational activites. I am interested as to how the law stands. Thanks Mel for your input and links...it makes interesting reading
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Mel?
Ive been called worse
More to the point I reckon is what about, say you (or your missus) gets pulled up on a dark lonely road by a plain car and a bloke in plain clothes who says he is Fisheries and wants you to unlock and get out of the car?
What rights do you have to ensure he is who he says he is, without breaking the law IF he really is?
What if you didnt think his ID looked legit through the window but had never seen one before?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
I would think
I would think any Fisheries or Rangers etc, that try to pull you over while in plain clothes and unmarked cars would be under the same laws as police. If the police try to pull you over in an unmarked car and you are worried for your safety, you are allowed to continue on untill you find a safe place to pull over. ie: fuel station, car park at a shop or someware there are people around to ensure you are safe.
Well thats the way I understand it. Plenty of low lifes masquerade around as police and other officers.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
I agree, but dont know how
I agree, but dont know how that works. If you keep driving it'll become a pursuit?
If you stop, can they force you to not ring anyone before unlocking the door and if your missus rang you in that situation, what would you tell her to do?
Always handy to know your rights, I do find it interesting that some imply only criminals need to know their rights
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
grantarctic1
Posts: 2546
Date Joined: 03/03/11
One case
One case i found in QLD, www.tweeddailynews.com.au/news/pull-over-its-the-fake-police-blue-audi-2007/764666/
There are a few more , but its pretty hard to get a direct answer on the subject.
I tell my missus , never to stop for anyone ( including police ) if no one else is around and she dosn't feel safe. She dosn't have to speed , so its not realy a pursuit and it will go to court if they want to push the issue.
walloped
Posts: 191
Date Joined: 08/04/12
Sorry Rob, was reading a
Sorry Rob, was reading a couple of different posts.
Red Dog
Posts: 311
Date Joined: 13/12/12
197 is quite
197 is quite interesting:
197 . Power to require assistance from people(1) A fisheries officer may, if in the fisheries officer’s opinion it is reasonably necessary in the circumstances to enable the fisheries officer to perform any duty or exercise any power under this Act, require —
(a) the master of a boat or the person in charge of any vehicle to make the boat or vehicle available for the use of the fisheries officer; or
(b) any person to provide such assistance to the fisheries officer as the fisheries officer considers necessary.
(2) A person must not, without reasonable excuse, refuse or fail to comply with a requirement made under subsection (1).
Penalty: $10 000.
(3) If a fisheries officer uses a boat or vehicle under subsection (1), the person who would otherwise have been entitled to the use of the boat or vehicle at that time may apply to the CEO for compensation for loss of use of the boat or vehicle.
(4) If a person applies to the CEO for compensation under subsection (3), the CEO is to pay to the person such amount of compensation as the CEO thinks fit.
(5) A person is not personally liable for anything done or omitted to be done in good faith by that person in the course of giving any assistance to a fisheries officer in accordance with a requirement under subsection (1)(b).
At least you can apply for 'compensation for loss of use of the boat or vehicle.'
Interesting questions though walloped.
I don't have anything to hide and I understand the reasons why they need to check your boat - but I don't have to like it.
I go boating and fishing to escape a world of laws, bureaucracy and ya can't do this and ya can't do that..
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
Walloped - so how many times
have you been breath tested on the road - would you feel the same way? You've been checked over a dozen times - how many boat trips would that involve and over what period of time?
Gman66
Posts: 55
Date Joined: 15/02/12
Walloped 1.2.3.
Hi Walloped,
Good query you have raised, here's my take on it.
1.If a person refuses to allow fisheries to board their boat the person could face a 10k fine.
2. If a person denies them permission to search, what do they need to enforce this? I dont think they would attempt to force their way in as any form of force would be a last resort and I doubt that they are trained specifically for it. Most likely the process would be to call the police to assist the fisheries officers to gain entry to the premisis. If it escalated from there it would all land in the property owners lap and would be potentially very messy.
3. Like yourself I'm not a big fan of big brother antics, in this case I take the view that big brother is on our (recreational fishers and the community in general) side by working to prevent our fish stocks being ripped off to unsustainable levels by those that take to much, take undersized, breeding, out of season or protected species. If this was left up to us to enforce the place would go pearshaped in no time with potential harm to people (both guilty and innocent)
To date all the fisheries officers I've encountered in WA have been good operators, the occassional individual (usually new to the game) can have a bit of a chip on their shoulder but it is a temporary part of the learning curve. One thing they are alligned on with myself is looking after the ocean and our fish stocks.
Cheers
G
Acceptance is the key
outdoinit
Posts: 1009
Date Joined: 05/10/12
Well Said Gman
I agree with your take on it, protect the fish stocks and belt the persons that dont abide by the rules..
I've spent half my life fishing.. The other half I have wasted..
black gen
Posts: 762
Date Joined: 13/04/11
This is goldnothing beats
This is gold
nothing beats hearing this twice in a day...
what exactly are u hiding on ur boat walloped if u dont want to be checked
gav1970
Posts: 153
Date Joined: 12/02/07
While I agree that most of
While I agree that most of time it's best to be as co-operative as possible with law enforcement officials, the reason legislation is created is not only to ensure that people generally behave within a certain accepted set of guidelines, but also that those who are responsible for upholding laws do so whilst being lawful themselves.
I was, once upon a time, a member of Vicpol and as such have a little knowledge regarding the questions you're asking . During my time I was present during the execution of a couple of fisheries related warrants on premises, and while I understand that this was over the other side of the country, essentially the legislation is the same.
Re question 1: Section 191(1)(b) of the Fish Resources Management Act 1994 states; "A fisheries officer may, for the purposes of this act, board a boat and enter and search a boat or vehicle." - So no it's not piracy, and yes, they have every right under the act to stop your boat, board it, and inspect it, and if you were not to comply you would likely be charged with an offence under the act.
Re question 2: As per section 185, if fisheries don't have a warrant and they have not pursued you, without interruption, from or near a place where an offence was suspected to have been committed to the premises (as pointed out above by Rob H) then they do not have a right to enter your premises without your permission, and it could be argued that it would be an offence for them to do so. However, the vagaries involved with words and phrases contained in the act such as "without interruption", "from or near" and "suspected" mean it is very difficult to define each hypothetical situation, especially without going through the hundreds if not thousands of court set precedents regarding fisheries law.
From my experience, fisheries would be loathed to search a premises in any situation without a warrant, unless it was abundantly and emphatically obvious that they had complied with witnessing the offence and subsequent persual to the premises in question, as per the act. Magistrates can and will be particularly harsh on law enforcement officials who breach the sanctity of a persons home without a valid and lawful reason. From my own experience it would also be unusual for fisheries officers to conduct a search on private premises with a warrant without the aid of police, especially as private premises can often be the most dangerous places to be doing that sort of job, especially when you're not invited.
I hope that goes some way to answering your questions.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Interesting that while
Interesting that while browsing the link I put up, the answer to a question of Petermacs a while back popped up as regards allowing them to board when you think it isnt safe or may cause damage.
(boarding a boat train or plane)
(6) For the purposes of subsection (5), it is a reasonable excuse for a person to refuse or fail to comply with a signal or direction given under subsection (1)(a) if —
(a) the person reasonably believes that to obey the signal or direction immediately would endanger the person, another person or the boat or vehicle; and
(b) the person complies with the signal or direction as soon as it is practicable to obey it.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
benferguson
Posts: 139
Date Joined: 30/12/10
they are just doing there jobs
i think they do a great job yes it can be annoying being checked becuase i try and do the right things but keep in might how many dont and just think if we took everything we caught we wouldnt have the great fishing we have today
Belly Fish
Posts: 499
Date Joined: 09/03/12
Road Check Labor Day 2013
I was travelling back from Jurien after the Labor Day weekend in 2013. Just before Wedge every car was being waved into a rest stop. First was the Police breathalysing, then if you had a boat, Fisheries checked the catch. No issues for us as we were doing the right thing.
I was talking to a Policeman mate about this dual operation, and what he told me was interesting (if true). He told me that the Fisheries officers don't have the power to pull your car over for the purpose of a catch check, but can ask to see your catch once stopped....that's why they run the dual operation. Interesting...
BTW, I have no issues at all being checked...the more the better I reckon.
crasny1
Posts: 7003
Date Joined: 16/10/08
I can understand people's concern's about privacy etc
BUT - in the years on this site I have heard more complaint's about the "lack" of Fisheries Officer's to check on the baffoon's that clearly do the wrong thing.
I personally almost feel privilidged being checked, because I know they are out there, protecting the stocks as best they can, so the future fisho's will still be able to enjoy the great sport/past-time.
Been double checked coming back from Dampier to Karratha. Police licence check, surprisingly no breatho, and then fisheries. I suspected it was purely a Police Pullover to allow fisheries check, because the Police was not interested! A 4pm Saturday arvo coming from a day on the Briney if the breatho-d some Im sure they would have nabbed a few.
However fisheries was very diligent, and I noticed some "confiscated fish", including a massive Queensland Grouper.
So for me they are doing their job, and I am happy with that. Found them very friendly, never had an issue, and in the Peel area there also is a very fine looking young female fisheries officer with a beaming smile that makes you just feel "good"
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
terboz123
Posts: 1358
Date Joined: 13/04/11
Exactly cransy completely
Exactly cransy completely agree.
i don't see why people don't want fisheries around or checking catches unless yor blatantly raping and pileging over limits. I just can't see why people would refuse this for the better good of our fishery...
fair enough if you want to know yor rights, but if I was fisheries , and you refused I would take registrations down and red your boat & car so your priority when ever seen. Call me what you want but I just can't see why you would refuse this with nothing to hide
a hard days fishing still beats work
PGFC member
GCGFC memberRob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
not at all disagreeing with
not at all disagreeing with that, more along the lines on what if you were not sure he was who he said he was?
Wouldnt hurt to know your rights about querying the situation on why he wants to strip search you with a rubber glove on at some isolated beach with no phone cover
Exaggeration maybe but you get the drift-its not about avoiding getting caught doing something wrong. More about recognising danger signs etc
All my dealings with the FO's on the ground have been totally courteous and businesslike even when my catch was publicly seized and later returned with a handshake and on good terms-still see him around and we laugh and have a chat.
I was allowed to repack it so it wouldnt be returned in a frozen solid lump as I had a fair idea Id get it back.
The honchos in the office less easy to talk to but still no prob.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
roberta
Posts: 2773
Date Joined: 08/07/08
Also been told
that all Police Officers are also Fisheries Officers and can check your catch whether in your car, boat, etc
Ginger Tablets Rock
Rob H
Posts: 5807
Date Joined: 18/01/12
correct, also Naval
correct, also Naval officers, that may only relate to foreign registered vessels though
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Muppet
Posts: 408
Date Joined: 23/11/09
dat be tru
done plenty of work with fisheries ......
.
roberta
Posts: 2773
Date Joined: 08/07/08
Walloped I also get
absolutely peeved off with all these rules and regs. When Bob and I went fishing if Fisheries was their we'd do the right thing. We never gave the erflo's any info as that went into the research and most times ended up less in our bag limits etc.
One time down the club I was waiting for Bob to come back with the trailer and the Fisheries came up to me and said can we look in your boat I said go for it, of course when they left he said why did you let them in the boat you aren't skipper I yelled back, we have nothing to &^%$ hide, as we'd gone squidding and caught about 15 squid and a couple of nice whiting.
What gives me the total sh...ts is when shopping and you go through the cash register, the young check out chick asks to look in my persona handbag, I refuse as that is my personal hand bags and yes fellas its against the law, as the only person to look in your personnal hand bag is a Police Officer. I can be a biatch (so sick of being asked all the time) at times and stare into the check out chicks eyes and say "Are you accusing me of stealing," I never stop then looking into shopping bags from other shops (but they cannot put their hands in those bags by law) as they are not my personnel handbag.
Ginger Tablets Rock
chris raff
Posts: 3257
Date Joined: 09/02/10
“ Clayton Inspections “ in my
“ Clayton Inspections “ in my experience , they’ve only ever be on board for 2 minutes lifting the esky lid and checking the RBFLs .. presumably most of the busts would be people a few mm undersize . I’m sure if I had intent to deceive , I’d find a better stash spot for my excess fillets ..
“Intelligence is like a four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places.”
Fausto79
Posts: 40
Date Joined: 10/02/14
should do more landbased checking
I think most people with boats tend to stick to their limits because they know there's a good chance they will get checked or most important they are respectful of protecting the ocean.
It's good that fisheries checks and i have no problem with them.
only thing i'd like to see is more foot patrol on jettys, rivers, dams etc.
I dont have a boat so i always fish on land and even though i dont have a whole lot of experience i know when someone is taking the p... you always see these types keeping everything they catch regardless of species or size. mostly off hillarys rocks, freo etc. i hear it happens on the river too.
people like this should be hit with hefty fines because they care a lot about money, more so than any animal. if they kept getting hit with fines everytime they thought it was a good idea to r..e the ocean, they may either give up fishing or realise it's better for the restaurant to buy cheap basa and sell it as "pink snapper" than to go fishing for anything that moves.
the ocean is nobody's right, it is everybody's privilege. i know most people on this forum know that though so i am not preaching to you.
Give me a fish and I will eat for a day, teach me to fish and I will starve to death.
bitten
Posts: 803
Date Joined: 07/04/10
rape is not a dirty word
rape is not a dirty word
Cruise Control
Posts: 973
Date Joined: 03/11/10
Generally i find that the
Generally I find that the FO's are pretty good. They are welcome to board my boat at any time provided they dont put me at risk or damage my boat whilst they are doing it. I am particularly against them boarding on land unless they remove their shoes first as I had some clown board my boat at the old boat ramp in Carnarvon during Carnarfin wearing heavy boots that had mud and stones embedded in the soles that scratched the glass on my boat and then traipsed red mud all over my carpet. I take my shoes off and go barefoot or don boatshoes when I board as do my crew. I see nothing wrong with Fisheries doing the same.
One Fisheries Officer would not remove his boots so I told him to stay off. He was welcome to look over the side but not standing on my plastic guards. He got a little cranky and called one of his "juniors" to shed their boots and get on. Found nothing as we fish to the rules. The bugger targetted us every day thereafter but we didnt need to have the same conversation again. Courtesy cuts both ways and on some occasions FO's can do with understanding what that means.
Dicko
Posts: 219
Date Joined: 07/10/10
Never had a problem with
Never had a problem with fisheries, and I always let them know I welcome their presence.
They are just trying to do their job.
nana nana nana nana fishing!!!
Browndog
Posts: 590
Date Joined: 10/04/12
Marine Safety
Was fishing late arvo near GI a couple of weeks back on a Sunday. Marine safety came past for a "safety check". Totally professional and friendly, but quite thorough (checked dates on RFBL, flares, EPIRB, Fire Extinguisher) all was in order and no problems. Happy to see them anytime.
Have had one minor issue with fisheries when being checked, muppet skipper bumped the flash RIB into my runabout, no damage or real problems, but it was a completely glassed off day with no swell, so what's the excuse for poor seamanship? Anyway, happy to see fisheries out there, seen too many undersize snapper/dhu frames at the cleaning station or worse still thrown in the water at the ramp!
Best Fisheries experience was when retrieving the boat at the ramp with my dad (mid seventies) a pair of fisheries officers rock up and asked him if he was a pensioner, which he said he was. They then offered him a bag of nice KG's (all sized) that they had just confiscated from some younger guys illegally spearing at Point Peron. Said they normally take the confiscated fish to retirement homes, but they didn't think they would get there for a few hours so better to give them to someone heading home. Again, totally friendly and professional.
Agree they could look closer at Jetties etc, as it seems a lot of ocean raping goes on landbased. (Not having a go at landbased fisho's, just an observation - again 99% do the right thing)
My 2 cents.
BD.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Happy to see Fisheries
Always had good respectful (both ways) experiences with fisheries down Mandurah way. They have stopped me on the water and at ramps and had a good look over safety gear and catch (crays).
A story doing the rounds around Mandurah last year went like this, a group of thugs virtualy took over the Jolly Frog jetty when the yellow fin whiting were running. This pack of bullying rat bags used to really intimidate and threaten everyone so that they had the jetty to themselves, and took way in excess of the bag limit. They would put bucket loads of whiting in the boot of their car and then continue on and catch more. Well some one phone fisheries and they rocked up, one a small size female and one a mid dle aged guy, questioned the thugs and wanted to see in the car boot of their vehicles. Go take a flying hike or words to that effect came back to the request, coppers called by fisheries one of the thugs told the copper that they had no right to search his car without a warrant. The copper told him just how much damage did he think would be cause by him using a tyre lever to force the boat open. Result boot opened with key thugs booked. Now that's what I would call effective policing and fisheries operations.