driving cats
Submitted by grayzeee on Sat, 2012-04-07 07:02
I hear a lot about how you need to be able to drive a cat properly , before you'll get the best out of the hull , and how they can be dangerous if driven wrong , in quartering seas and beam to.
So what exactly are you supposed to do? (and what shouldn't you do)
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If I spent half as long fishing , as I do reading this bloody forum , I'd be twice the fisherman I am.
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
I thought you just drove them
I thought you just drove them flat-out in any condition, least that is what the only cat-owner I know does.
CCC
Posts: 539
Date Joined: 29/03/10
Try and get a copy of peter
Try and get a copy of peter websters magazine on power cats
Www.boatmags.com.au
Or send him an email maybe better
He explains it as walking the cat, which is about learning to get it to rock from one hull to another. I wont geT into the detail, peter will explain much better then i can.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Capsize
Spoke to the owner of the cat that tipped over out of Carnarvon the other day, just got two big waves together, dropped the front corner in to the trough , next wave crashed on the bow and she corkscrewed and over she went.
The skipper is a former pro skipper who has had many years at sea in monos and cats so inexperience cannot be a factor.
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
Ive seen a 680 patriot do the same thing
They only just righted themselves before the next set came.That was between Exmouth and the Murions.They were pretty shaken up by it.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Lastchance
Posts: 1272
Date Joined: 02/02/09
How big was the cat though?
How big was the cat though? Just because he had experience on the water doesnt mean he automatically knows how to drive a pleasure craft. Mates of mine that skipper or work on larger work vessels are the worst of the lot as they are used to steaming where they want, when they want regardless of conditions. Im sure this isnt the case though.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Cat
Was a 23 footer and now is a mobile fish attracting device somewhere in Shark bay.
The skipper has had the boat for a number of years and used it very regularly out of here both inside and outside of the islands in all sorts of weather. He vows that he will never buy another one after this happened.
From what the skipper and the skipper of the boat that was about 100 metres behind when it went over a mono hull boat would ave pushed through it without any trouble at all, once the front corner went down it was all over, doing a corkscrew and flipping over chucking the crew in to the drink and trapping him under the bimini. They were heading into the sea on a front corner not running with it so broaching doesn't come in to it.
Lastchance
Posts: 1272
Date Joined: 02/02/09
F*ck that then!
F*ck that then!
woody
Posts: 615
Date Joined: 27/02/08
Hey Carnarvonite do you
Hey Carnarvonite do you reckon that if that skipper was driving a mono the other day in those conditions it would have performed better or worse than that cat ( given that the cat capsized) ??
There is a lot of cats down here in Espy...everyone raves about how stable they are and how they handle rough seas better....makes you wonder just how good they really are compared to a good mono.
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
Once you learn to walk them
you notice a big difference in handling.Its all about reading the waves ahead and dropping the hulls where they need to be.I drive our mono almost the same and it runs better.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
nev
Posts: 193
Date Joined: 04/02/09
I suppose
what a mate said to me , never go faster than a following sea in small boats. More comfortable to ride in and lessens the chance of broaching if your tubs a bit tender.
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
Or slower? Some boats,
Or slower?
Some boats, especially ones with foils tend to try and whip around when a following wave catches up.
Tomcat
Posts: 614
Date Joined: 24/02/11
Cats
Had my cat for over 20 years and love it it has faults like anything but you learn over time how to walk it been out in all sorts of boats and would not swap it Been out in bad weather never felt uncomfortable and in a following sea nothing comes close
Perry Home
Posts: 434
Date Joined: 07/10/10
Walking a Cat
This "driving" skill is used on most occasions with a following sea. It's a matter of reading the water in front of you and turning or tilting the cat so that one sponson stays in the water as long as possible whilst the sponson where the water has "dropped away" is left momentarily in the air. The walking term comes from flicking the cat from one sponson to the other as need be to get maximum soft ride - thus stopping the possibility of broaching the boat. As Cats tend to track in the water if the boat broaches at any speed you know you re gonna be in for a pretty scary experience. Owned my Cat for 6-7 years and never grew tired of this little activity on the way back in.
Tomcat
Posts: 614
Date Joined: 24/02/11
Cats
I rarely do anything in a following sea and it has never even given a hint of broaching if anything I tend to power it on just keep the nose trimed up a little
Tomcat
Posts: 614
Date Joined: 24/02/11
Cat
That is one of there faults into a head sea the nose tends to dip if your going slow have had a few over the front as long as your square to the sea it not aproblem on the quarter that different
dodgy
Posts: 4563
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Not a huge fan of trolling
Not a huge fan of trolling out of one. First time I really got to have a good go was only a couple of weeks ago. Tunnel slap got old pretty quickly.
Apart from that it wasn't too bad. Took a fair bit of driving to get the best out of it.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Lastchance
Posts: 1272
Date Joined: 02/02/09
Post up the footage from the
Post up the footage from the second day of AIBT Dodgy
dodgy
Posts: 4563
Date Joined: 01/02/10
I wasn't totally
I wasn't totally uncomfortable with going through that area at that speed. Well, not until we drowned an engine due to the depth they sat at on the pods. Might have to edit out some bad language though....
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Tomcat
Posts: 614
Date Joined: 24/02/11
Cat
Put auto pilot on it you will never look back great for trolling
dodgy
Posts: 4563
Date Joined: 01/02/10
The chop thumping against the
The chop thumping against the tunnel was on par with some poorly designed ally boats as far as ride comfort goes. Quite dissapointing.
Had autopilot.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
JohnF
Posts: 2836
Date Joined: 07/07/10
My old man has had a 20 ft
My old man has had a 20 ft shark cat many years ago and a 34 ft Kevlacat two years ago.
In the righ conditions, cats are AWSOME and a lot better than a mono, but directly into a chop going slow ( tunnel slap) and with a quarter following sea (broach) they are nothing short of diabolical.
The 34 kevlacat was downright dangerous in a following sea, we very nearly flipped it in seas that were rough but would be easily handled by a much smaller Boston whaler.
They are great to fish off, stable platform, but way too dangerous for the average punter. Mono for me.
Boston Whaler 235 Conquest......getting the flogging it was built for.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Choices
When we were doing the selection for Carnarvon sea rescue's new boat it came down to 3 options,
1 An ex crayboat around 50 foot that could cruise at 20 knots+
2 A 10 metre Air rider
3 A 10 metre Naiad
Most of the other skippers had doubts on being able to handle a 50 foot boat and no way could I convince them otherwise because that was my first preference. We took Exmouths Air Rider for a test drive out by the Slot with an outgoing tide and I deliberately tried to make it broach and it did very easily plus a couple of times when we weren't trying. We had Volunteer sea rescues standby 6.8 metre Naiad to have a play with for a couple of hours while it was on its way to Onslow, mind was nearly made up then while down in Perth for the annual conference we were invited to go for a ride on Rob Kirby's 10 metre sports version Naiad with twin 350 Yammies on the back. Decision made and all the boat crews agree we have done the right thing. At no time did we even consider a cat because of all the reports we have seen and through personal experience with them.
Cost wise there isn't too much difference between the Naiad and the Air Rider but performance wise compared with Shark Bays one and Exmouths the Naiad leaves both for dead IMO.
dodgy
Posts: 4563
Date Joined: 01/02/10
Do you have many conditions
Do you have many conditions around carnarvon similar to the slot? That place is pretty special when the conditions are right.
We have an airrider being delivered in sept. I would have preferred the naiad but it wasn't my decision.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Koks
In close around Koks island when the bigger tides are running is about as close as you can get. The Gap is too dangerous to go mucking about in if the swell is up
The group should have arranged to take a ride in one of each to do a comparison like we did.
Our 10 metre Naiad with twin 300 Yammies blows Shark Bays Air Rider away big time with their twin 300 Suzis
Anthony Hall 87
Posts: 193
Date Joined: 09/01/10
I have had the 560 series
I have had the 560 series bruce harris cat for around 3 years now, grew up fishing on one with twin 70's the one with 70's used to dig in and make you feel a little uncomfortable in a following sea. I have twin 115 yammi fourstrokes on mine now and she skips over the swells in a following sea no matter the size, trim the nose out the water and havent had a drama. Like tomcat says if you slow suddenly going into it you can cop one over the top. Only other critisms I have is it is a little ass heavy at rest now and the motors sit a little low. You also get nice and wet up the back if the wind is coming across you it sucks it in, a bit of water never hurt anyone though.
The old girls weight a ton and don't look to pretty, but they are tough with plenty of glass in them and I don't reckon you can go past them for a small boat in big seas.
Tight lines to all :)
marrisy
Posts: 198
Date Joined: 08/09/11
yes, had mine 26 years,
I am going to downsize , so mine will be for sale this summer. center consul.
fairdinkumdan
Posts: 5
Date Joined: 14/07/12
Driving CATS / Mono capsizing
I am new to CATS - have a 1982 - 5.6 m Shark Cat with 90hp Envirudes (1998). Bought a CAT after much research following the loss of my previous boat (15ft Haines) off Jumpinpin bar last June! Why a CAT - simply put had to have foam filled hulls and twin engines! So I watched all the VMR trainign tapes, read as much of these forums as possible, talked to boaties, got Peter Websters book.... and tried to learn as much as possible....oh and I only had $25000 available!
Searched for latest and lowest hours motor I could find and a hull with no discernable rot! Trailer was fair condition - but I don't take that to sea! So the money went where is needed to go so to speak.
Anyway some feedback on my sea ventures in a CAT so far....
First trip was from Scarborough to Bribie in 25 knot westerlies with 1.2 to 1.5 m waves on a 1 m swell. Splashes at idle came over the front, but once up on the plane - it was fine. 16kts is a steady plane for this boat with 4 passengers. It is a 30 minute trip in the CAT to bribie - in these conditions. Would have been 1 hour in the mono boat at least - and probably not make it anyway - with 4 aboard - would have taken a lot of water and the bilge pump would have been flat out! Coming back the wind had not changed and it was sun set - so we hit 20 knots (any faster was unnerving and this was my first run) - and the boat ate up the miles smothly and without any major concern. Boat was angled in at 45 to 60 degrees to the waves/chop - so we were not smashed about. My son sat in the cabin despite the speed and chop - exemplifying the smooth ride (relatively).
Other trips were in Broken Bay on a 1.5 m swell and no real chop, and in a lake.....
Last week end a mate and I went out from Nudgee Creek and due to the 20-25 knot wind form the E-NE - decided to head for Mud Island to shelter form the wind and do some fishing at anchor. There were 5 boats out in the whole of Moreton bay only plus ships! The swell was 1.5 to 1.7 m and the waves were of similar size on top! The was partlicularly worse where the mouth of the river met the bay - even 1 mile off shore from the airport! The river was rushing out at a low tide causing the waves to stand up more! We travelled across these at 20 knots angled at about 30 to 45 degrees and at time the boat flinched as the crests of the waves hit the back of the hull. So we varied our angle of attack from 25 degrees from parrallel to the wave and if a steeper wave was approaching turned into it more to ride up over it and added a bit more power it we could not power passed it in time....
Sometimes this seemed to work well other times we were a little airborne but at all times we did not want to be jumping from face to face - washes off to much speed and then can make the CAT more vulberable... We let the hulls to do the work - walked the cat - to suit the speed and approach angle that worked with this wave period and our chosen direction. Tacking almost parallel at times.
My point is you need to keep the bows up on the plane and never let the waves meet the back of the sponson - and keep momentum even with the boat up on the plane in any rough water! When you are in the rough you are committed to it. And watch out for breakers and drop offs!
Finally, we came home at night and the wind did not drop as we had hoped - so under search light we tacked across the same waves then had to run with them back to the launching ramp! We tried a few different strategies and I think runing about 30% faster than the wave whilst a little unnerving reduced the cavitation frequency of the motors which came up toward the surface when we cross the waves, but any slower and the fol;lwoing wave sucked us back of the back slope and we were at risk of being swamped and the nose ploughing (yes it happened a few time) was un nerving till we got our sea legs.
I hope this helps paint a picture of what seems to work...
I am sure others will have lots of comments - so I welcome them....
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
Speed
is always a problem, both on road and off road..
The problem is when cutting seas at 45% one motor should be trimmed a little less that the other, not hard to work that out with a bit of thought.
Mono 4 me.
fairdinkumdan
Posts: 5
Date Joined: 14/07/12
Motor trim on CATS
Hi Squidder,
Yeah I have played around with that trick - but I find that a little unnerving as if you suddenly power up (say) the trimmed out motor twists its side down and can add to the roll of the boat at the wrong time... perhaps. However I think (if I read you correctly) you would trim out the motor closer to the wave approach - since the approaching wave face is always steeper than the back - or have I got that totally wrong?
Appreciate your advice on that one...
Cheers - Dan
Perry Home
Posts: 434
Date Joined: 07/10/10
First of all
No matter what hull you re running in travel at a speed that you maintain control of your craft. Having owned a small cat for 6 years the " walking the cat" is best described as steering the boat in such a way as to avoid the troughs of the waves ( if possible) - basically putting the sponsons on the high point of the wave/ chop that your running with. You tend to do this more often when in a following sea. The experienced Skipper Carnarvonite is talking about must have peaked out when he realized what his situation was .
squidder
Posts: 457
Date Joined: 03/09/10
Equalizing
the or emptying the front fuel tanks first up is what we used do in my mates 7m cat to eliminate any nose diving.
One must have the correct amount of power and most importantly the correct leg length {outboard} to achieve any trimming under power.
There are know doubt some shite designs in regards to sponsons which would make the skipper work his arse off under power.
Small cats are not designed to take on the big stuff, just like dinghys, they are purely meant for a good ride inshore in nice conditions and become a stable platform to fish at rest.
A young fella I know went pro and he had a bursta, plenty of weight and power, cruised like a dream interestingly with a single trimmable inboard. You know who I mean, Carnarvonite.
fairdinkumdan
Posts: 5
Date Joined: 14/07/12
Walk the Cat
Agree with you about the following sea - it does work well. then when the wave eases out push forward... works for me anyway! Cheers!
Alan James
Posts: 2207
Date Joined: 30/06/09
Driving Cats too easy
Check this out. Good skipper or lucky I'm not sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETir8OEdDrc&feature=player_embedded
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Brown undies
Bet all three on board were wearing brown undies when they stepped off, were white before they started off though........
Paul H
Posts: 2104
Date Joined: 18/01/07
Don't know you can compare a
Don't know you can compare a sail cat with a power cat but worth a watch, could have gone wrong in a big way.
Been out in some rough seas in my mates 8m cat and never been worried in any direction. Need to have loads sorted and trim and drive them properly though.
Cheers
Youtube Channel - FishOnLine Productions
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbUVNa-ViyGm_FTDSv4Nqzg/videos
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
That was some shit hot and
That was some shit hot and lucky Skippering.
Love the West!
fairdinkumdan
Posts: 5
Date Joined: 14/07/12
Driving Cat Fuel Usage
Hi All,
This is still on topic - about 5 years ago I posted on this forum - now much more experienced at driving a CAT - and have some date to shar of fuel usage after doing a lot of research on how to calulate it and to see if I could find a way to calulate it!
I cannot seem to work out how to link a file or image here!
So try this link.... https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aix2Yk8l-tPYhfMIj0EJlEttYyLaPQ
Happy to answer questions/receive comments...
Regards
Dan
snuffs
Posts: 140
Date Joined: 06/08/12
Hi Dan - Interesting Data.
Hi Dan - Interesting Data. Thanks for sharing. Always good to know how your boat burns fuel at different speeds and conditions.
Whilst no expert, your fuel burnage appeared higher than I expected for a 5.5 meter boat with twin 90's (you suggested 54/lph @ 25knts + 73/lph @ 30 knots if I understood correctly). I guess if they are two stroke motors and you're boat is heavy fibreglass this could explain it?
As a comparison I would consider my fibreglass boat as quite heavy, its 8.2 meters long (mono hull), I run twin 150HP 4 stroke Verado's (they are older being 2007 models). Fully fuelled (570 litres)and loaded I will burn 52/lph @ 25 knots and 77/lph at 30 knots. But my fuel burnage starts going through the roof if I wish to run at 35+ knots or more.
fairdinkumdan
Posts: 5
Date Joined: 14/07/12
Driving Cat Fuel Usage
Hi All,
This is still on topic - about 5 years ago I posted on this forum - now much more experienced at driving a CAT - and have some data to share of fuel usage after doing a lot of research on how to develop a forula for it and to see if I could find a way to calulate it!
I cannot seem to work out how to link a file or image here!
So try this link.... https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aix2Yk8l-tPYhfMIj0EJlEttYyLaPQ
Happy to answer questions/receive comments...
Regards
Dan
JohnF
Posts: 2836
Date Joined: 07/07/10
I have broached a 22 ft
I have broached a 22 ft Sharkcat and put a 34 ft Kevlacat on its side in conditions that my 235 Whaler would be uncomfortable but safe in.
Never again for me, cats are too confidence inspiring in medium chop and downright dangerous in heavy seas.
Boston Whaler 235 Conquest......getting the flogging it was built for.
rodfishsa
Posts: 82
Date Joined: 29/03/13
G'dayA lot of
G'day
A lot of generalisations here when designs and setups very significantly. We bought our first cat (KC2400) about 4 years ago. We took it out more than a dozen times in whatever the conditions were without fishing gear, just hours of driver training. Had studied all the books and articles and got first hand tips from another kc2400 owner. Son and I would swap every 10 or so minutes as that was about our limit at the start. Once we felt somewhat comfortable we took our boat to its home adjacent to the notorious waters that we fish and we have been very happy. Rescue services use these and other cats, but they do give skippers a lot of training to avoid potential issues that novices can not. Skippering a cat does require more practice/skill, If you don't have the aptitude or the time and patience to learn, or don't spend enough time on the water stick to mono's. But again, a good design and setup destiguishes different mono's, you can't just say all monos ........... whatever.
Cheers
Rod
snuffs
Posts: 140
Date Joined: 06/08/12
Every time I go to a Marina
Every time I go to a Marina and see a nice big CAT, I get excited ... I love standing on one for their sheer deck space and design layout. I always come back home excited and looking whether I should make the switch from my monohull. I acknowledge that every boat is a compromise, and I love my existing boat for everything (especially in a following sea), but just love the sheer deck space of a CAT. Every time I go home doing some more CAT research ... and every time I finish my research I get that uneasy feel in my stomach from the sheer number of CAT safety trends and stories reported, many of which are from experienced skippers I trust.
Whilst I have only owned monohulls (for the past 20 years), I have been on a number of CAT's over my time, albeit normally to scoot around the bays of Rottnest ... where I have certainly found them beneficial for pulling pots, fishing heaps of people or sleeping on the deck. I consider myself reasonably impartial given I had tried to give myself every reason to transition.
Eventually, I decided to at least bite the bullet and go out (as a passenger) on a large 9-10m recreational CAT (survey compliance standard), driven by an experienced CAT skipper, to see whether I would be able to entertain being comfortable owning and driving one in very rough seas (understand they seem to drive great in average seas, but that's not my focus). Conditions chosen for the test run were daylight, 4m+ swell and 35+ knot winds ... Conditions I have found myself (for one reason or another) in numerous times, either coming back from Rotto, or Margaret River Waters which I often frequent ... whilst my current boat makes for a very uncomfortable trip in these conditions, it never feels like broaching or sliding, and always felt safe.
All I can say is that test run of the CAT in the rough conditions on a following cross sea scared the sh!t out of me !!! ... I definitely couldn't see myself owning one, and that trip put it completely out of my system. With my focus on trench fishing late at night, where the weather can turn, and you can't see the waves, I concluded 100% that a CAT was certainly not for me ...
rodfishsa
Posts: 82
Date Joined: 29/03/13
They do take some getting
They do take some getting used to, not for the faint of heart LOL Somewhat like going from a road bike to a motor bike and side car, it just feels weird. Some people freak out on yachts when they heel over, doesn't mean they are safe when skippered correctly. Some can handle a good cat, many can't, just get over it :-)
Cheers
Rod
marble
Posts: 773
Date Joined: 03/09/09
It seems to me from reading
It seems to me from reading this that cats you need to know what your doing, any half decent mono its point and shoot. . . . guess what we own.
Been on cats up to 44 foot,they are hard work. . . mono for me
PMY 25 Centre Console DF300 Suzuki
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
I know a bloke who's just
I know a bloke who's just bought one around 5m and is a cluster fuck at the best of times. It scares me with how he'll go with this, no test runs in the river etc to get a feel for it.
Love the West!
rodfishsa
Posts: 82
Date Joined: 29/03/13
Every choice has it's
Every choice has it's compromises. For me going from nearly 40years of monos to a cat has been a saving grace. Old back injuries, bone eating cancer and non stop chemo left has made a day out in a mono totally exhausting. I couldn't stay seated as the constant pounding (6m heavy deep V with 200hp) would stuff my back and standing would take me several days to get over, just exhausting. Now I can stay seated while on the move, my wife and decky for 40+ years sits gazing at the scenery without the need to hang on in pretty horrible conditions with pressure waves and 20knot winds (never buying another mono she says). We even leave stuff on the dash and it stays there. Spent a few hours out in a 6.2m platey a few years ago and it took me 2 months to get over it. Mind you, I was impressed with the ride given it's very light weight and low deadrise. If I was younger and fitter, I'd have more choices. You need a deep water ramp though, 2 engines to service. But the 2 engines etc are conforting when your way out of sight of land in the southern ocean and not a boat to be seen.
Back to the original post. I guess the things not to do are similar to a mono, in a following type see if you're over running the swell/waves, keep the nose trimmed up on the low side (trim works diagonally) and turn towards the low side to bring it up when necessary. Also, as with a mono, if things are getting serious going down a wave and into the next don't back off at the crucial point as the bow will drop and make things worse. Backing off and turning away from the low side could be disastrous. This could be a trap for young players as a mono will lean to the left when you steer left but a cat will lean to the right. Not exactly sure what walking the cat is but I think it's just turning the wheel left and right as you are going up and over waves to lower one hull to punch through and then back a little the other way over the top. But I usually just find a nice angle, set the trim and go, with a little adjustment here an there, sometimes frequent in the rough. Tunnel slap can be annoying, but we don't do a lot of trolling, usually just to get our 6BFT's each summer. It happens going straight in to small waves and can be avoided by bearing away around 20 deg or speeding up to lift the tunnel. For those who's circumstances require trolling directly in to a sea, yeah, that would be annoying.
As I mentioned previously, there are many offshore rescue, surf rescue, fisheries etc cats. Having the odd queer moment seems to be tolerated by them as me, knowing that if I drive correctly that moment of discomfort will not put me and crew in the water :-)
Each to their own though, always compromises.
Cheers
Rod
Here's a cat driver training video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P15QKKGqjk
Faulkner Family
Posts: 17867
Date Joined: 11/03/08
one thing that was shown to
one thing that was shown to me many years back while fishing out of albany in some crazy conditions in a 30 foot cat, the skipper threw a rope over the back of the boat tied onto the side the seas were coming from. i asked why and he said it helps drag the back corner down to reduce tge chances of noseing into the next wave.
how true it is i dont know but the boat wasnt too bad apart from the tunnel slap
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together