Frames needed to track fish
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=157&ContentID=151521
The Department of Fisheries recently held its second prize draw for those fishos who have contributed skeletons (frames) of West Australian dhufish, pink snapper and baldchin groper in order that vital research work on the species can be carried out.
There were three lucky winners — Geoff Watson scored a Leatherman, Peter Salamone won a $100 Bluewater Tackle voucher and, best of all, schoolboy Perry Francis won a $100 tackle voucher for donating a dhufish frame.
A frame is the skeleton of the fish, from head to tail, as well as its guts and gonads, which are left behind after filleting. Some fishers use frames as compost in their garden or to make a tasty fish stock, but plenty of us simply chuck them away.
This is a pity because frames hold detailed data about a fish — information that can be compiled and used to decide the status of stocks of these bottom-dwelling (what scientists call demersal) finfish and the future management of the fishery based upon them.
Fisheries scientists need more help from fishos on the west coast to be able to monitor the sustainability of demersal fish species.
As many fishos now realise, West Australian dhufish and baldchin groper are only found in WA. So, not only are these fish important to fishers, they are also a very important part of the marine eco-system.
Researcher David Fairclough says that it is really important for recreational fishers to provide more fish frames, so that we can produce robust assessments of the status of stocks of these indicator species and therefore the west coast demersal scalefish fishery as a whole. Dr Fairclough and the department’s finfish research team thank all the people and fishing clubs who donate frames regularly. “After a few years, the ongoing monitoring program will allow us to determine whether the changes to management are having a positive effect on stocks,” he said.
The final prize draw for frames handed in during 2008-09 takes place next month (for fish caught before June 30). First prize is a Calcutta reel and a Monster Mesh rod, with runners up winning $250 and $100 vouchers. Each frame handed in gains an entry to the draw. , From July 1, the process starts again, with 500 dhufish and pink snapper frames needed from the metropolitan, Mid-West and southern
regions, along with 500 baldchin groper frames from the Mid-West during 2009-10. Prize draws will be held every three months.
For more information on how and where to donate dhufish, pink snapper and baldchin groper frames and to see if the targets have been reached, go to the Department of Fisheries website at www.fish.wa.gov.au and click on the “Send us your skeletons” icon on the front page.
Let’s all help the fish scientists help out some of our favourite fish species, so there are fish for the future.
For those young fishos who would like to learn more about sustainable fishing, the department’s Fisheries Volunteers are running fishing workshops in Mandurah (under the old Mandurah Bridge) on Wednesday, July 8, and Wednesday, July 15. Numbers are limited, so booking is essential. Contact the department’s metropolitan community education officer on 9432 8023. Children must be accompanied by a guardian.
For the coming school holidays also check out the special fish-related activities at the Naturaliste Marine Discovery Centre. Go to www.nmdc.com.au for details.
GLEN JAKOVICH
Site Admin - Just ask if you need assistance
.thumbnail.JPG "Me loaded up on to a jumping queenie")
uncleben
Posts: 187
Date Joined: 06/01/09
no way will they get any of
no way will they get any of mine..... they use this so called studies against us(we all know their studies are full of shite) and then introduce rediculous fees........ if anything i will leave my frames in the sun for a few days and leave them on the doorstep of parliament.....
sherbert
Posts: 4717
Date Joined: 10/09/06
i will not help them out
Cos all it will do is comes back abite you on the ass///// So i have not,,, and will not give frames
I belive on cuts, But not takeing big money out of peoples pockets
steve
Assassin landbase fishing club
offroad fisher
Posts: 51
Date Joined: 09/06/09
maybe the gov can buy them
maybe the gov can buy them off us?? then we can recoup the costs of the stupid fishing licence!
damo6230
Posts: 2029
Date Joined: 07/06/08
zen
better to make informed decision from/with feasible data........
no use guessing...........
it may come back to bite our collective arse if they close fishing for dhuies, period!!
worth thinking about
uncleben
Posts: 187
Date Joined: 06/01/09
im with offroad fisher, sell
im with offroad fisher, sell the frames to them if they want them. if they wont pay for them then they can bite my collective arse ......
offroad fisher
Posts: 51
Date Joined: 09/06/09
damo6230, i would agree if
damo6230, i would agree if the gov used any of the data from the frame research to reach their conclusions... dont think they have so far.
plenty of fish frames at the commercial fish mongers... oh, thats right, they sell them!! maybe the money raised from all these "licences" can be used for them to purchase fish frames
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
they will get mine
been doing my bit for research since the mid nineties wont stop now.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Garry Lilley
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 27/09/06
'been doing my bit for
'been doing my bit for research since the mid nineties wont stop now.'
your obviosly a part of the problem,no wonder we keep getting shafted.have you ever stopped and thought that all your help with research might have caused all this drama?
they can prise my frames from my cold dead hands.
unless they give me money.then i'm in for sure.
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
Thats me part of the problem
that may well be the solution or is that to cryptic for you.I feel that the couple of fish a year that you catch would not warrant payment anyway .I will just do one more trip a year to make up the shortfall in numbers.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Paul G
Posts: 5215
Date Joined: 12/12/07
Garry lilley says your
Garry lilley says
your obviosly a part of the problem,no wonder we keep getting shafted.have you ever stopped and thought that all your help with research might have caused all this drama?
Giving frames is not any part off the problem ,over fishing and greedy fishers is the problem,fish stocks are declining ,wake up half bag limits for all fish for the whole state round the board.. A nd maybe there will be some fish left in 20 years ..
Active Gyp-Rok solutions ,Residential and commercial ceilings and walls
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Ignorance is bliss hey Gary (rolleyes)
Science and the act of research is what we need to manage a natural resource or would you have us blindly carry on fishing till we catch the last one and then winge and complain that the government should have done some research to identify the problem before it was too late.....
Coming from you Gary thats last post was a bit of a shock!!!
The frame research isnt the problem or the crutch the government is using to back the license implementation and cost structure which most people including myself are upset about to some degree. They did that all by themselves as an illconcieved and incorrectly weighted blunt tool i/m/o.
What they did use the science for however was to correctly identify that there is a specific problem with the stocks of certain species, which anecdotaly 90% of fisho's would have to agree with. Thats what the science has done not the poor choice of management technique.
The frames are what tells us some valuable information about growth rates and fecundity (how much sexual action a dhuie gets) and a heap more. That my friends is needed in order to make informed decisions, or would you rather the govt based its decisions on the loudest arrogant kill em all fisho out there, coz he or she says the dhuie isnt in trouble coz he or she catches heaps.... (rolleyes) Or equally the loudest arrogant tree hugging greenie with a predetermined agenda coz they hold more political clout.
I want them to make informed decisions about a fishery that I hope my kids will enjoy with their kids and grandkids.
Don't blame the scientists and certainly don't listen to the ignorant few that spruik the "conspiracy theory" that the govt is out to shaft us for some weird and wonderful reason.
Stopping the donation of frames isn't going to do anything other than push the govt further in the precautionary principle and in the absence of any more data take even bigger steps to protect what we think is left.
I don;t agree with the blunt tool of this costly license but I do agree with restrictions being iomplemented now while we still have a fishery to manage.
I for one will continue to donate frames as I believe in science not guesswork and I encourage you all to do the same.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
i think gary was having
a bit of a poke at me to see my responce and gary and a few others myself included feel that our voiced opinions and concern for the fishery have not been recognized .Gary more so than me.He developed the first release weight and was part of the first tagging program for demersal fish and all the data the club members have collected havent been taken into account because we where all too good at releasing fish.He was told he had no idea what he was talking about when he told the scientists that sambos have a venting system to allow for air to escape on capture in deep water.The latest western fisheries mag has a write up on sambo science with no mention of his discovery.(Not that he was the only one out there doing it)He arranged for freezers to drop off frames.So he has done as much if not more than anyone on this site for the rec fishing in wa and has not got the recognition for his effort from fisheries so if he chooses not to give up his frames i can fully understand it.There has been a lot of pissing and moaning over the new laws that are going to be introduced toward the end of the year by people on this and other forums.Mostly from people that have done nothing for the fishing in this state other than to go fishing and catch a feed .Life is all about give and take and for a few people it is all about the take and not so much about the giving back.So what your opinion will always vary from the next person.I am sure i will cope a bit of flack over this post because im not the most subtle of people on the keyboard (sometimes it doesnt read as i mean it to say).Long and the short of it is that fisheries are there to manage and i feel as an angler i will give back to my past time as much info as i can to make it sustainable into the future and it is people like gary and a few others that havent sat behind a computer screen and got out and done their bit that i have respect for . Think long and hard about this even if you choose not to help research the changes are going to happen with or without your input .If you can look back in twenty years and like gary and andy mac and wally and paul g and me plus many many others can say you have given back and not just taken out then you have nothing but respect from me.If you catch a fish and live north of the river and have no idea where to drop off your fish frames send me a pm and i will point you in the right direction .
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Sarcasm I assume
Unfortunately there isn't an emoticon for that.
I figured that was possibly what Gary was doing knowing his background and said as much to Adam offline. But I didn't think it could go without a response, hence my little rant. Unfortunately there are too many jumping on the bandwagon of distrust I was just a little shocked that someone like him would be saying that sort of stuff without a big winking smiley at the end..
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
mate i wouldnt blame him if he didnt do anything more
to help .My point is that he has reasons not to because of past dealings.Were as the people that dont do a thing to give back to the fishery in some small way are just freeloading.You dont need to go to extremes just picking up your shit at the end of a trip to the rocks is a start.Last year i drove the current lines off mindarie and picked up two full black garbage bags full off crap.The guys went down and cleaned up the asi groyne the other day and most of them have never fished there.We came back from dirk hartog with a garbage bag full of just line so for the love of your pastime just use your head .If you give up your frames all you are doing is helping them make a informed decision.If not put your head in the sand and do nothing but dont come on a forum and say im not going to help im just going to keep on taking until i lose the right to and then im going to shift me effort to something else.If fisheries are smart they will move to drop the bag limit on the deeper species like gray band and halpuka to one fish per person because in my opinion they are going to be the biggest loser out of this as people start to shift their attention.So bring on your remarks because as far as i am concerned you will be shooting at a tank with rubber bullets it is not going to do anything but show to me what type of person you are.To all of you that know me you will know were im coming from and going to so that is all that matters.Thats all i have to say.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
We are on the same page
I was just highlighting that a comment like that from Gary was a complete turnaround fron the previous comments I had seen him post so it was either out of character and meant in a sarcastic tone or I was missing the point completely. I perhaps understand a little better now.
Either way like yourself I am just concerned at the misplaced blame being laid on the research side. It has no logic. .
Best analogy I can come up with is like blaming the pathologist (researchers) who tells your doctor (the govt) that you have a cholesterol problem. Its not his fault that you have been eating too much fatty food (V5 species), he's just bringing you the facts.
The Doctor gives you a management plan you don't like that includes being banned from your favoutite food and tells you to buy some pills at an exhorbitant price (license). He also asks you to go to the pathologist get a blood sample every few months (donate frames) to see how you are going as that's important to help manage your problem.
Of course you can get mad at the doctor too and probably will, but in the end if you are still alive and live till your 90's you will be thanking that pathologist and that doctor, but if you choose to ignore them, don't go back for a check up and donate that blood sample, you will be flying blind and one day it might all catch up with you, way too prematurely.
A somber analogy and one very close to the management of our fishery.
Some how I can't see the pathologist faking your results just to make you lose weight coz your missus (the green lobby) says you are getting fat.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
hlokk
Posts: 4294
Date Joined: 04/04/08
But what if your missus
But what if your missus panders to the doctor who then chooses an alternate pathologist whos results differ from another but is what the missus wants to hear? What if the doctor buckles to persuasion from your missus and tells you to go on more of a diet than you need? What if the pathologist became a pathologist because they dont like people being so unhealthy, or what if they were just incompetant and missed several key data (or made innaccurate assumptions).
Not directed at fish frames research or you Andy, just points to ponder. There are many assumptions in research and sometimes fidling with the assumptions or methodologies you can get biased results to either way you want.
As for me, I try to give every blood sample I get, I just dont get all that many samples, haha.
roberta
Posts: 2773
Date Joined: 08/07/08
Good
comments and have to agree allrounder
Ginger Tablets Rock
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
Cheers
Roberta just my opinion formed over a lot of years .The new regs will not effect the people that have the heart and brains to know it is in the best interest of the fish and there for our beloved pasttime that is a privilege not a right.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
roberta
Posts: 2773
Date Joined: 08/07/08
Yes allrounder we get ribbed all the time in Leeman
by friends in the Caravan Park, "Why aren't you two out fishing, weather is perfect," yes the weather is perfect but we've already caught enough fish to do us 6 months and that includes feeding the kids and the lady next door looking after our place while we are away. We fish for the future, just wish a lot of our friends would too but unfortunately they all just catch, catch and we can't prove it but sell their catches, to be honest you can only eat so much fish and crayfish. We will pay the fishing license and the demersal fishing license as well. Hate it when we talk to a professional wet liner up there and he brags that he has just made $300 thousand for the last financial year, so it means he has caught one hell of a lot of fish.
Ginger Tablets Rock
gregk
Posts: 169
Date Joined: 03/02/09
frames
there getting more of mine
Sekans
Posts: 65
Date Joined: 31/01/08
I wish I was skilled enough
I wish I was skilled enough to catch a dhuie, snapper or baldie
crasny1
Posts: 7006
Date Joined: 16/10/08
And when and if I get down there
They will get all my frames.
I keep saying it is not about our rights, it is about the rights of the fish, ie how many is left. We dont have the right to rape and pillage the stock, because if there is no fish, there is no fishing!
And that I dont want to see.
Neels
"I would like to die on Mars. Just not on impact!!" _ Elon Musk
Ewan
Posts: 271
Date Joined: 15/05/06
Perfect Andy
I like that analogy Andy! Very apt, very clever!
I also chuckle and cry at the same time reading some of these posts about never supporting another researcher "cos they use it against us" ahhh...yeah, the public service has nothing better to do than invent conspiracies against rec fishers(!) - where is that sarcasm emoticon gotten to...
erm - The Department of Fisheries wants nothing more than to keep us fishing. That is their job, that is the legislation they operate under and it is their statutory duty. If you want to get all conspiratorial about it, you might say that they will do everything they can to keep us fishing, so that they still have jobs to do and funding to attract. So you can bet your bottom dollar that any closures or restrictions that take fishos out of it are last resort measures. It is a shame that the bottom dollar is kind of the point with this particular management approach.
Like many others I like that something dramatic has been done, but not the financial dis-incentive side of things, and the rather large questions about whether the 50% reduction can be acheived with this approach...
At the end of the day the only thing that will help any of us is more research and understanding, and my personal belief is that gleaning 'anecdotal' knowledge from the public is an important part of that - but far more difficult and costly than it might seem...but the frames research is one way that we can contribute directly to the scientific research side of things too.
As Andy explained the frames research builds the picture of the population structure, breeding ages and sizes, numbers of large/old vs small/young fish, etc. From which size limits and bag limits, breeding and recruitment patterns and other pretty important stuff is derived.
"they use it against us" - gawd...well I guess that would be kind of true if 'our' aim was to eliminate these dastardly species from 'our' waters...(sarcasm emoticon again)
likewise I read people slandering some of the scientists involved, calling them names, questioning their nationality etc. Like children. Are these best arguments that can be put together by these people? Clearly they have been thought through more than the scientific rigour of the scientists, and deserve more respect in the decision-making process (sarcasm emoticon).
For those that do that - I wouldn't be surprised if/when you are not listened to. Likewise reading the things people are calling the Minister - like him/Liberals, hate him/Liberals, whatever - I can't imagine a career politician having much respect for average joe fisher calling him a (*&^$ and so on. It doesn't realy help the image of fishos very much does it? Clearly half of us are rabid rednecks (really do need that sarcasm emoticon...).
If I was a politician or other decision-maker reading much of what has been written on this and other sites, I would have little respect for the opinions of half of those posting, when they are calling people names, and ridiculing research because of some imaginary conspiracy theory...
Having said all that - there are also many considered posts, with good pros and cons being discussed, and there are a good many people who have done alot behind the scenes to contribute and who are no doubt frustrated by the politik. It is a shame you have to search through all of the bile to find these. Though it can at times be entertaining!!
I have the final solution - pay us all to fish all of the time and to document our catch and effort, tag and release, re-capture rates and all that stuff. Everybody would be very happy!!! Professional rec-fishers! yeehoo!!
Cheers,
Ewan
Ewan
Posts: 271
Date Joined: 15/05/06
no returns....
ahh shoot - it looks like the formatting doesnt let us have lines between paragraphs at the moment...??