Tracking for recreational vessels. (Opinions needed)
Hi All,
Looking for opinions (that doesn't happen often!!)
We're developing a project that involves placing small gps devices on recreational vessels under 8 metres that will have a range of approx 20km from established base stations.
Easy set up, solar powered and doesn't need to be hardwired in.
There are a multitude of applicatons we're targeting but primarily;
1) Safety at sea, giving VMR and Water Police access to vessel location under secure format. Last known location and for those of us that (occasionally) forget to Log Off and hopefully enabling emrgency services to locate vessels when epirbs may not have been activated.
2) Anti theft, owners can be alerted to unauthorised vessel movement.
Pay as you use Insurance an option here as well.
2) Possible Boat ramp pay as you use system so you don't need to mess around with multitude of ticket options and local shires can direct funds raised into facilities.
3) Marina Management (Marinas only have access to members who authorise)
4) Fisheries research and
5) Environmental control.
I'd love to know the opinions on the pros and cons from the perspective of WA boat owners and fishers and also if people would be willing to trial the units when available.
Personally I've developed a system that can work up and down our coastline and obviously I see a need but that doesn't mean everyone else does.
The device itself isn't meant to replace epirbs and I guess is an alternative to "B" Class AIS.
So the questions.
Would you be supportive of such a system if it supported SAR capabilities and possibly reduced Insurance Premiums?
Would you be overly concerned about visibility to VMR, Water Police, Fisheries and Environmental control groups?
What price would you be willing to pay, $100-$400?
Would you want your NOK or family members to have access to location services?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Rabbit22
Grumbler
Posts: 19
Date Joined: 31/07/18
I think more infromation is
I think more infromation is needed to form an opinion.
What communication technology it is going to use?
It would be interesting to hear more on this "an alternative to "B" Class AIS". How?
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
Long Range low power comms.
Communications would utilise the "new" IOT protocols such as LoRa and Sigfox.
Long range-low power.
Base stations or Gateways need to be set at strategic points but they are low cost and easily deployed and can be solar or mains powered.
Possibly set up in remote and rural locations to monitor isolated baot ramps and potentially open up option of personal devices for rock fishers and those operating in regional locations.
By contrast AIS is available for everyone to view whereas we are proposing that only those individuals nominated by the owner or groups that are authorised would have vessel visibility.
Our system has personal security and personal data security as a significant focal point of the business.
Hope this helps a little Grumbler, thanks for the interest.
Grumbler
Posts: 19
Date Joined: 31/07/18
Thank you very much for
Thank you very much for explanation. Technology looks interesting but there are some obvious limitations.
Sorry, my post is going to be rather on critical side. I simply do not see a reason to preach benefits to you because you see them without me. So here are my two cents.
1. Distance.
Let us put subject into some perspective. I have created a small map to show how 20 km omnidirectional coverage looks. It ignores all possible problems that may affect signal propagation. Base stations located at Hillarys, Woodmans Point and Point Peron ramps. One may see that 3-4 stations may give quite good coverage of the inshore part of Perth waters. From this point of view technology looks good for inshore boaters. For people with more capable boats it does not look especially attractive.
2. Alternative to "B" Class AIS
Obviously not. AIS is collision prevention system. This technology, unless installed on every or at least many boats does not give any protection from such possibility. It is good as some sort of sharing network. It could be interesting for some recreational boaters but unlikely for fishermen. Not too many would be happy to have a device that attracts even more pingers.
3. Anti theft
Again it is going to work to some extend, for some customers in "right" location.
4. Boat ramp pay, Marina Management
A nice extra for some users...
5. Fisheries research and environmental control.
Very optional option for many :-)
6. Price
As already discussed above, this technology, at least as I see it, is more attractive for people who rarely go further than inshore riffs in Perth waters (just an example location). Majority of them are small boat owners and I do not think this category of people will be willing to spend much. Take me as example. I have a small boat and do not go further than 5 fathom bank. I have EPIRB and debating and idea of having radio on my boat. I use free phone app to let my partner see my location. It does not work well further than 2-3 km West from Point Peron. Will I buy this technology? Only if I see obvious benefits in comparison to current situation. Benefits for me:
a) confirmed login/logoff to sea rescue and possibility to track my location for them;
b) location information sharing where I decide with whom I want to share;
c) cost is noticeably lower than other competitors ask. For example, SPOT, which almost does not have geographical limitations.
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
thanks for the input
Cheers Grumbler.
Unfortunately the overlay didn't come through but I certainly understand what you're saying.
In regards to range we'd be ok with a gateway on Rotto for example, this would cover much of the traffic in the Perth metro as there are already elevated stations in Perth CBD.
The target is for smaller vessels that probably don't go out past Rottnest and can also offer some kind of support in isolated locations...(Windy Harbour, Peaceful Bay etc where there is limited to no phone coverage)
For those with larger vessels it will still give an indication which direction they go and register that the boat is in use for a VMR prompt to log on and more importantly that it returns.
All great feedback, sorry if it sounds as though I'm trying to justify things. :)
Grumbler
Posts: 19
Date Joined: 31/07/18
I hope picture shows this way
I hope picture shows this way
hilly9
Posts: 282
Date Joined: 13/10/12
I think to start with a
I think to start with a lot of people don’t sign up to sea rescue so getting them to sign up to something non-mandatory that only gives them coverage in certain areas may be a stretch. Secondly explaining to people that you’re not tracking or recording their fishing spots where others could access them may be more difficult than you think.
How quickly can you roll out your solution? Is it future proofed?
As a surveyor who works in a role which involves a lot of business improvement with GNSS technology for data and surveying appliciations we are really moving away from the limitations of using base stations.
You’re limited to 20km from your base stations. Something that uses the mobile network with no infrastructure cost, basically a well-developed app could be an option. There are already a few released and many in development which do just that. The mobile networks will only get better and cheaper
For 99% plus coverage at work I use satellite-based asset trackers and personnel safety devices that use one of the satellite mobile networks. Basic options are less than 300 each with approximately $30 monthly costs per unit. Once again these prices will continue to drop.
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
Good feedback thanks
Picking up on some of the points around the base stations and mobile networks is certainly relevant in populated areas and I agree that coverage is improving but still patchy and expensive (relatively) in rural and remote. Heck, I'm in the middle of Perth and have to use a bloody land line!
It will be interesting to see the new Nano Sattelite offerings as this would negate any base stations and mobile network reliance but this will be at least 3-5 years away from reliable, ubiquitous coverage.
All responses are very relevant and appreciated
Jason P
Posts: 521
Date Joined: 16/02/13
Does sound interesting as I
Does sound interesting as I myself rarely log on/off with sea rescue as i don't usually have any set destination and change fishing spots regularly but would like to have someone monitoring just in case.
DM306
dodgy
Posts: 4577
Date Joined: 01/02/10
The people that would see
The people that would see the most value with this is those that do long range trips to remote areas.
Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
And it won’t work there
And it won’t work there unfortunately
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Feral
Posts: 1508
Date Joined: 01/11/06
It's a no from me sorry.. At
It's a no from me sorry.. At no point would I willingly pay to have my boat (or car or anything actually) tracked when I don't have control of the data .. Just my opinion ..
Even if it was free I'd find a way to disconnect it :)
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
Interested in reasons
Not trying to be funny Feral but I'm interested in your reasons why you wouldn't want authorised groups to know where you are, purely for my own feedback as I'm positive you're not the only person.
In this instance it would only be such groups as VMR, Water Police etc but it may also be for de-identified fisheries data, environmental control and only in the vicinity of base stations or networks.
You'd have the option to nominate external groups for visibility and also for your family to get notifications. Aside form that all data would be restricted.
Some jurisdictions mandate AIS for all vessels but there is also the capability for these vessels to turn off or tamper with the AIS system whereas this would constantly be reporting every hour or so when in range.
gruntre69
Posts: 533
Date Joined: 15/10/16
I think the 20 Km range is
I think the 20 Km range is quite limiting..
Marine trimmer NOR (available for clears, tops, carpet, upholstery, custom equipment covers)
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
Thanks for the response so far, much appreciated :)
Note that there is some resistance to tracking and this is to be expected.
We have run similar discussions in New Zealand and the response seems to be more towards advocating that they'd prefer if CoastGuard knew where they were if things turned to custard. This is surprising since they don't even have vessel registration but the key is around data and location based security but getting confidnce around this is always going to be challenging.
Interesting times, thanks again.
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
You can do almost all this
You can do almost all this for free at a longer range just by letting someone ( the missus, ya Mum etc) track your phone location while you are out fishing?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
to a point
There are problems with the phone side of things as I've stated in a few of the other posts.
Range, if it takes a swim, can be moved from boat to boat. The NSW app is very handy, not sure if can have a 3rd party access it though...
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
There are benefits in either
But I don’t really see an overwhelming advantage.
Range is already far greater and more extensive than this system.
Boat to boat? Doesn’t matter as its your missus/Mum etc tracking. It’s the person not the boat that needs protecting.
Flat battery? Vs solar powered safety electronics, park it under cover 3 months and the battery dies
Drowning the phone-absolutely but how will this device transmit if upside down or sunk?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Darren253
Posts: 570
Date Joined: 23/07/16
VMR App
We’d go A long way if we had the VMR app like they have in Sydney. I think a lot more people would use it if it was simpler to access.
i know i’ve had issues before logging on and thinking “i’ll Do that when I hit the channel” but i’m 10 past Rotto before I remember... could also let VMR’s know the location as part of the app.
Darren253
Posts: 570
Date Joined: 23/07/16
VMR App
We’d go A long way if we had the VMR app like they have in Sydney. I think a lot more people would use it if it was simpler to access.
i know i’ve had issues before logging on and thinking “i’ll Do that when I hit the channel” but i’m 10 past Rotto before I remember... could also let VMR’s know the location as part of app.
http://marinerescuensw.com.au/component/content?id=79/
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
thanks for the link
These guys have a great product and I agree it would be handy to have a local version..
carnarvonite
Posts: 8667
Date Joined: 24/07/07
APP
Had a chin wag with Dep Commissioner of DFES and head head of DFES Marine services yestaerday, they are going to introduce an APP along the same lines as used in NSW next year and later in the year ROIP, radio over internet protocol, so that if you log in at Hopetoun and there isn't anyone on duty there the call can be registered at another group anywhere in the network and you will be logged on or off when you return
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
Phone apps have their place
Phone apps have their place for sure but I'm concerned that they can be a liability in the marine environment, if they run out of battery, take a swim or change from boat to boat the system breaks down.
They are certainly great for logging in/off and having additional information and features with range getting better but still bloody aweful in some areas.
Cheers.
z00m
Posts: 1086
Date Joined: 10/05/14
VHF
How is it different on the safety side to VHF? If things go wrong in metro area then VHF can be used to contact someone.
If things are so bad you can't use UHF then set off the epirb. Epirb can also be used anywhere without range limitations.
If you have sunk then VHF and your tracker are about the same. Tracker might give last poisition but unless you are overdue then no-one is looking for you. In that case an automatic epirb would be best.
We have a lot of safety gear that works well in the metro area already. If you go long range/have a larger vessel then AIS is probably already onboard.
I can't see how paying more for your system brings anything new. Maybe would help others to see where you fish?
Rob H
Posts: 5796
Date Joined: 18/01/12
One thing I certainly
One thing I certainly wouldn’t do is buy an item that makes it easier for the government to take money from my bank account...
For me it’s a no.
A float free gps Epirb would provide a much greater, reliable safety net without enabling all the associated issues brought up of short range (false sense of security is way more dangerous than the lack of) privacy, etc
Of course the ultimate goal of technology development like this, is to convince the authorities to MAKE everyone have one.
Then there is no need to advertise, discount etc and coin rolls in until the patent expires!
Sorry that’s cynical me talking
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
SeperateKnob
Posts: 668
Date Joined: 28/11/16
I would have to agree with
I would have to agree with Rob H regarding float free GPS EPIRB.
If requiring assistance, vessel hasn't capsized, have battery power, and in range use radio. Not in range or battery/s dead then flares/EPIRB. The only issue that isn't covered is in the event of capsize - nine times out of ten the EPIRB will go down or be trapped in vessel
Jackfrost80
Posts: 8144
Date Joined: 07/05/12
Same with Rob and Darren I'd
Same with Rob and Darren I'd love to see the rollout of a dedicated app that uses the existing technology I already carry around i.e. a smartphone. The advantage of that is that you can use the app and create a travel plan for the day to send to the Mrs' phone rather than a scribbled note on the bench that you can update on the water and then it sends her an alert if your GPS location is not back at the ramp at the designated time and she can track your location and either a) ring you and tell you to get your arse home to watch the kids or b) contact sea rescue with your last known GPS whereabouts if she can't reach you who will then try reach you by VHF and begin a search.
I'll add that I carry a GPS PLB on my body at all times and when I'm solo I also have my handheld VHF on my body too and religiously log on and the appeal of the app if more for piece of mind that someone knows exactly where I last was in the case of catastrophic event (like flipping on a whale) and is piece of mind for the Mrs in that she can see me.
Officially off the Pies bandwagon
rigpig
Posts: 507
Date Joined: 21/11/12
SPOT Device GPS tracker
I work for oil and gas companies and when we are exploring out in the desert away from any sort of coverage our people carry these devices.
https://au.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=100
Full satelite coverage, it has an SOS function for SAR, has a tracking option.
These paired up with Thuraya Satelite Sleeves for out mobiles phone is the safetest option I use. Thuraya turns your normal mobile into a satelite phone.
SPOT also do a tracer for anti-theft.. https://au.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=128
hezzy
Posts: 1521
Date Joined: 27/11/09
be a no for me as well im
be a no for me as well
im with feral and rob etc
free floating epirb is preffered ,
having fished /survived for years without the world knowing where exactly i am , im happy to continue on as is , and use my own intuition on how far to push the limits etc
id not want to have others control the data or be ''tracked '' in a way i cant control and dont particularly want anyway
one of the joys of going fishing or bush for me over the years is you are away from people and contact to a large degree ...
if stuff happens then so be it , im okay with that mostly , thats part of the risk i accept when i leave imo
hezzy
OFW 11
evil flourishes when good men do nothing
rabbit22
Posts: 23
Date Joined: 17/11/11
Food for thought
Thanks for the feedback gents.
Technology is certainly going to improve and make these solutions a lot more affordable over time and the holy grail is getting a sat option at a lower price point, easy to configure and secure, but with customer acceptance :)
There is a lot of concern over tracking which is fair enough and hopefully none of us are in the situaton where the vessel goes over and we can't get to the epirb but noted the free floating epirb is an option.
There are a few greater benefits for managing marinas etc but my main objective was to gather thoughts on having your location available to VMR, Water Police etc.
Phone applications can certainly be a way to enter the market and may have a better uptake.
Anyway, great to stimulate a bit of discussion & cheers for the opinions.
Tim
Posts: 2497
Date Joined: 26/09/06
Comp
We have been looking for something like this for competition fishing to track the fleet after having to deal with a few incidents and boats not meeting sched requirements.
We were looking at the Spot trackers but there is a significant cost especially when you have 20 - 30 boats you are trying to cover at a time.
The only problem would be the 20km limit as we can be fishing the trench for marlin and have a 75nm limit from Freo or out of Jurien with a slightly smaller limit.
resurgence
Posts: 578
Date Joined: 23/04/14
A few thoughts
This seems to be a competing technology with satellite based trackers such as SPOT, which offer unlimited coverage area offshore. I’m not seeing how this would be better.
Fremantle SeaRescue already use ROIP for a lot of their radio functions, and I believe they’ve been (or have already) trialing a mobile phone app for logging in and coverage on the water.
Lastly, I have my own opinion about choosing to not log in with the relevant VMR service...but that’s for another discussion.
justdhuit
Posts: 20
Date Joined: 09/01/18
Im with feral
no point 40 km out and someone in a lounge chair has your fishing locations and unsecured data
Fish like no Tomorrow