Does any one know just how the cat became inverted, all I heard was that it had capsized 18 ks of the coast and they had to dive under the boat to get to their EPIRB.
Seas 2-3 metres I'd rather stay home, I think the news said their boat was lost also.
I'm certainly not a cat hater, they can be a very impressive boat, but they really are over-represented in this kind of accident, ie, just handling causes them to go over, and not always in inexperienced hands.
I was a Cat lover before I put my old mans 34 ft Kevlacat on its side in 2m seas while turning with the sea, about as close to tipping over as you can get, people and gear tumbling all over the place. Friggen dangerous things, I won't go on a Cat now, they lull you into a false sense of security with their great ride up to the point they try to kill you.
I Ever went out in was big shark cat. one occasion on 3 m swell on way back in picked up back end nosed dived into ocean. Lucky it bob straight back up .scared crap out of me. Seen one turn over out at fads. Only 2 m swell. Lucky charter boat was there. Heaps of people love them . Must admit fished on few over the years ( cats) . Great ride . Sit nice.
The only experience I have had with catamaran hulls was I once sailed a season in Yvonne class cats (not sure about spelling)they were a big cat, I can't remember the length of them now however I think they still sail them at Rockingham.
Any way with a good following sea there was always a very real sense that you could expect to go to diving stations (bury the nose) at any second and shortly there after expect a swim. Just why this was a constant occurrence I never figured out but I didn't enjoy sailing in the class and left as quick as I could.
I also note that the latest and greatest cats that now contest the Americas cup suffer from the same event, although in a much more spectacular fashion.
Has this any relevance to powered cats I don't know, but those experiences from my sailing days has left me wary of going out in cats powered or sail.
Certainly no offence intended timboon - i just wanted to ask the question without starting a s@#÷fight so i apologise if you took offence.
Im a cat owner wanting obviously to defend the value of my boat from generalisations.
For some reason mono hulls going under dont attract the same 'oh i heard a story or my mate blah blah'.
From what i could see from a bit of research the biggest cause of boating accidents come from inexperience or not paying attention _ most boating accident statistics dont define hull styles - only style of boat or constructive material.
Had our little cat in all sorts of conditions and always feel safe.
.....virtually non-existent. But I do know that just about everything in life, including boat hull design, is a trade-off. To get something, you must give up something.
Cats are renowned for their ride, especially into the weather, and for their stability at rest. But JohnF and others above have illustrated the trade-off. You pick your poison.
What proportion of rec boats out there are cats? I'd estimate maybe 10%, max? But a casual eye on capsizes and unexplained sinkings while underway seems to bring the proportions of cats involved at around 30%. These are figures Australia wide, just from casual observations of rec boating incidents. Could be way out, but cats just seem to keep coming up. I follow the Ausfish boating forum, which is heavily q'land based, and you get some epic threads on this. Lots of cats ver there, higher than normal proportion, so it's a good place to listen in. Even long-term cat lovers on it admit that they will bite "if not trimmed/driven properly" and generally defend their own brand while slagging off other types of cats.
Jeez, define properly--must be a lot of variation there. Thjere was one particularly epic read, last year, which I can't currently find where one capsized in Moreton Bay--big cat, twin outboards, being sea-trialled for a prospective buyer by an experienced cat driver--IIRC, they were travelling at 20kts across a moderate slop with a bit of breeze, nothing special, when one motor suddenly cut--this caused one hull to dig in, boat rolled hard, people fell on top of the driver, boat went right over. The actual guy who was driving was involved in the thread, it got quite heated. I don't think suddenly losing one engine on a big twin rigged mono would cause anything dramatic to happen.
I think there is one basic stability issue with twin hulls--you have to treat them as a barge for stability purposes. Anyone who as ever done any commercial boating,and held any Masters' tickets, as I have, will remember doing stability calcs--how all monohull vessels have a righting moment,which will vary with actual hull shape and COG. This is its ability to recover from being heeled over. This can obviously affected by water taken over the deck during heeling, and the ability of the scuppers to clear it quickly. Most small boats will take a huge roll and recover, but the moment they take significant water over the side they are screwed--high sides, stuff all scuppers. Barges, or anything effectively wide and flat, are very stable UP TO A POINT. But they will tip, and the point of no return will be reached, and they go over, no hope of recovery. If you think of a cat over hard on one hull, there is little or no righting moment, stability zero.
Just my opinion,I sure others will contribute. And, to re-iterate, not a cat hater, far from it.
That without doubt is one of the best bits of some ones take on this crap "political correctness" that I have ever seen. It should be mandatory showing to all primary school kids.
Thank you for posting up the link it is most appreciated, lets put a stop to this crap that is passing for our culture, a spade is a spade, be offended and live with it.
Yes, that's the thread. I went past that, as there was another more recent thead about another Markham Dominator going over, I thought it was that one. Weren't there some "sunken cat" threads on here a few years back--may have been due to splitting?
The Hillary's boat from Ranmar's last link ended up being repaired and sold in SA - only to have issues with the repairs (not done correctly)
re the US issues - lots of builders over there making cored hulls with many issues of major delamination (done correctly a cored hull is good but get anything wrong in the construction steer clear)
i guess it's the same as saying sports bikes are over represented in motorcycling fatality statistics?
As I have previously mentioned, I am a newbie to Catamaran type fishing rigs, and I am actually struggling still to come to grips with the feel of my new boat at speed.
right now, I will take the pros as just out balancing the cons, but even my good missus says she does not feel confident in the Mako Cat....and she is an experiences power boater and sailor, ( as am I).
i see no comparison between Peter Websters glowing test report on my rig, and what I am experiencing at the moment ( I even wonder if it was the same hull )
yes, a fantastic platform to fish from, yes a lovely ride in most conditions, yes tons of usable fishing space.
YES....still makes me feel uneasy at speed, even on flat water.
Naturally, I welcome any constructive advice, or offers of a " "Cat Driving Lesson" from an expert.
before anyone chips in.....yes, I test drove it, in Queensland, and thought " This is different, but the reviews can't be wrong"
Are they more popular on the East Coast? Pretty good bar jumpers--isn't that what Bruce Harris originally designed the Shark Cats as? I know that all the original marketing was about that. Virtually all of the river estuaries over there have a bar to cross, one thing we thankfully don't have to contend with much over here (..Walpole?) I mean, between the Swan and the Gascoyne, about 500nm of coast, we only have one river open to the sea Are the big Naiads (RIB's)more popular over here?
As to mr Peter Webster, he certainly has his personal preferences, and they show--I take his reviews with as big as grain of salt as I do any reviews,because you don't know who's paying for it.
When cats first came out many of the east coast sea rescue groups got theirs at a never to be offered again bargain price as a way of promoting them as the thing to buy.
Yes they are good at crossing river mouth bars but can be treacherous in following and on the quarter sea. Having been out on quite a lot of them and like others have never felt entirely safe.
Too many roll over accidents for my liking to ever have the thought of purchasing one. When we were looking at a new recue vessel for Carnarvon, a cat was the very first one we discarded from our selection list, so others had the same opinion as me.
Seems that Freo Sea Rescue are about the only ones that have a significant number of cats (3). Most other sea rescue groups along the WA coast appear to have mainly RIB's, with a few other odd ones thrown in.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Full story wanted
Does any one know just how the cat became inverted, all I heard was that it had capsized 18 ks of the coast and they had to dive under the boat to get to their EPIRB.
Seas 2-3 metres I'd rather stay home, I think the news said their boat was lost also.
Coastrunner
Posts: 414
Date Joined: 25/10/14
Some info here regarding a
Some info here regarding a hull digging in while turning the boat.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/two-men-rescued-from-another-upturned-boat-off-bunbury-coast-ng-b88342626z
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Cat curse strikes again
I'm certainly not a cat hater, they can be a very impressive boat, but they really are over-represented in this kind of accident, ie, just handling causes them to go over, and not always in inexperienced hands.
Red Dog
Posts: 311
Date Joined: 13/12/12
"but they really are
"but they really are over-represented in this kind of accident"
Without wanting another Barneyboy v Timboon soap opera, any numbers or stats to support that?
JohnF
Posts: 2836
Date Joined: 07/07/10
I was a Cat lover before I
I was a Cat lover before I put my old mans 34 ft Kevlacat on its side in 2m seas while turning with the sea, about as close to tipping over as you can get, people and gear tumbling all over the place. Friggen dangerous things, I won't go on a Cat now, they lull you into a false sense of security with their great ride up to the point they try to kill you.
Mono hull for me.
Boston Whaler 235 Conquest......getting the flogging it was built for.
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Im with you john, They seem
Im with you john, They seem to be like a drag car. As soon as tou turn them your screwed.
little johnny
Posts: 5330
Date Joined: 04/12/11
First fishing boat
I Ever went out in was big shark cat. one occasion on 3 m swell on way back in picked up back end nosed dived into ocean. Lucky it bob straight back up .scared crap out of me. Seen one turn over out at fads. Only 2 m swell. Lucky charter boat was there. Heaps of people love them . Must admit fished on few over the years ( cats) . Great ride . Sit nice.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Only experiance with cats
The only experience I have had with catamaran hulls was I once sailed a season in Yvonne class cats (not sure about spelling)they were a big cat, I can't remember the length of them now however I think they still sail them at Rockingham.
Any way with a good following sea there was always a very real sense that you could expect to go to diving stations (bury the nose) at any second and shortly there after expect a swim. Just why this was a constant occurrence I never figured out but I didn't enjoy sailing in the class and left as quick as I could.
I also note that the latest and greatest cats that now contest the Americas cup suffer from the same event, although in a much more spectacular fashion.
Has this any relevance to powered cats I don't know, but those experiences from my sailing days has left me wary of going out in cats powered or sail.
timboon
Posts: 2924
Date Joined: 14/11/10
Red dog.... Timboon v
Red dog....
Timboon v Barney? Do you mean love at first type?
Red Dog
Posts: 311
Date Joined: 13/12/12
Certainly no offence
Certainly no offence intended timboon - i just wanted to ask the question without starting a s@#÷fight so i apologise if you took offence.
Im a cat owner wanting obviously to defend the value of my boat from generalisations.
For some reason mono hulls going under dont attract the same 'oh i heard a story or my mate blah blah'.
From what i could see from a bit of research the biggest cause of boating accidents come from inexperience or not paying attention _ most boating accident statistics dont define hull styles - only style of boat or constructive material.
Had our little cat in all sorts of conditions and always feel safe.
Auslobster
Posts: 1901
Date Joined: 03/05/08
My experience with cats...
.....virtually non-existent. But I do know that just about everything in life, including boat hull design, is a trade-off. To get something, you must give up something.
Cats are renowned for their ride, especially into the weather, and for their stability at rest. But JohnF and others above have illustrated the trade-off. You pick your poison.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
I'm the one who made that generalisation
What proportion of rec boats out there are cats? I'd estimate maybe 10%, max? But a casual eye on capsizes and unexplained sinkings while underway seems to bring the proportions of cats involved at around 30%. These are figures Australia wide, just from casual observations of rec boating incidents. Could be way out, but cats just seem to keep coming up. I follow the Ausfish boating forum, which is heavily q'land based, and you get some epic threads on this. Lots of cats ver there, higher than normal proportion, so it's a good place to listen in. Even long-term cat lovers on it admit that they will bite "if not trimmed/driven properly" and generally defend their own brand while slagging off other types of cats.
Jeez, define properly--must be a lot of variation there. Thjere was one particularly epic read, last year, which I can't currently find where one capsized in Moreton Bay--big cat, twin outboards, being sea-trialled for a prospective buyer by an experienced cat driver--IIRC, they were travelling at 20kts across a moderate slop with a bit of breeze, nothing special, when one motor suddenly cut--this caused one hull to dig in, boat rolled hard, people fell on top of the driver, boat went right over. The actual guy who was driving was involved in the thread, it got quite heated. I don't think suddenly losing one engine on a big twin rigged mono would cause anything dramatic to happen.
I think there is one basic stability issue with twin hulls--you have to treat them as a barge for stability purposes. Anyone who as ever done any commercial boating,and held any Masters' tickets, as I have, will remember doing stability calcs--how all monohull vessels have a righting moment,which will vary with actual hull shape and COG. This is its ability to recover from being heeled over. This can obviously affected by water taken over the deck during heeling, and the ability of the scuppers to clear it quickly. Most small boats will take a huge roll and recover, but the moment they take significant water over the side they are screwed--high sides, stuff all scuppers. Barges, or anything effectively wide and flat, are very stable UP TO A POINT. But they will tip, and the point of no return will be reached, and they go over, no hope of recovery. If you think of a cat over hard on one hull, there is little or no righting moment, stability zero.
Just my opinion,I sure others will contribute. And, to re-iterate, not a cat hater, far from it.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
is this it?
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php/112453-7-M-Rollinator-Real-Facts?highlight=capsize
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
timboon
Posts: 2924
Date Joined: 14/11/10
Red dog its all good... I
Red dog its all good... I dont offend easily and was no way offended!!
Always some interesting reading comes up when this sort of thing happens....
I'm going to fence sit and let those with more experience in cats educate me on this one...
sea-kem
Posts: 14857
Date Joined: 30/11/09
This sums up being offended
This sums up being offended lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
Love the West!
Krusty
Posts: 714
Date Joined: 27/11/15
Spot on
Spot on
My fishing spots are so secret........... even the fish don't know where they are !!
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
That has got to be one of the best
That without doubt is one of the best bits of some ones take on this crap "political correctness" that I have ever seen. It should be mandatory showing to all primary school kids.
Thank you for posting up the link it is most appreciated, lets put a stop to this crap that is passing for our culture, a spade is a spade, be offended and live with it.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Well, don't look at me then...
Yes, that's the thread. I went past that, as there was another more recent thead about another Markham Dominator going over, I thought it was that one. Weren't there some "sunken cat" threads on here a few years back--may have been due to splitting?
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
And don't assume that the yanks always do it better
www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/676095-i-broke-my-boat-today.html cat hull split along the tunnel join, very thin glass at that point
www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/810439-warning-hull-ameracat-27-full-gas.html quite a common failing with these apparently, 2yo boat. Cats are the flavour of the month in the US, and makers are jumping on the bandwagon. Though tey do build some vg ones.
and heres the fishwrecked thread about the Markham Dominator that cracked up. Some of the comments further down are relevant fishwrecked.com/forum/rescue-mindarie-last-weekend-vessel-damage
Paul H
Posts: 2104
Date Joined: 18/01/07
The Hillary's boat from
The Hillary's boat from Ranmar's last link ended up being repaired and sold in SA - only to have issues with the repairs (not done correctly)
re the US issues - lots of builders over there making cored hulls with many issues of major delamination (done correctly a cored hull is good but get anything wrong in the construction steer clear)
Google "Searay and cored hull"
Youtube Channel - FishOnLine Productions
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbUVNa-ViyGm_FTDSv4Nqzg/videos
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Yes, I have noticed this cored hull issue.
So much potential for failure, on some "big " names.
Lance55
Posts: 126
Date Joined: 26/08/16
The old Cat debate again
Theres certainly no debating the statistics.
i guess it's the same as saying sports bikes are over represented in motorcycling fatality statistics?
As I have previously mentioned, I am a newbie to Catamaran type fishing rigs, and I am actually struggling still to come to grips with the feel of my new boat at speed.
right now, I will take the pros as just out balancing the cons, but even my good missus says she does not feel confident in the Mako Cat....and she is an experiences power boater and sailor, ( as am I).
i see no comparison between Peter Websters glowing test report on my rig, and what I am experiencing at the moment ( I even wonder if it was the same hull )
yes, a fantastic platform to fish from, yes a lovely ride in most conditions, yes tons of usable fishing space.
YES....still makes me feel uneasy at speed, even on flat water.
Naturally, I welcome any constructive advice, or offers of a " "Cat Driving Lesson" from an expert.
before anyone chips in.....yes, I test drove it, in Queensland, and thought " This is different, but the reviews can't be wrong"
resurgence
Posts: 573
Date Joined: 23/04/14
Sea rescue
What are the attributes of cats that make them so attractive to sea rescue groups? And how do they deal with the negative handling traits?
PS I have zero experience with cats so I am genuinely interested to understand.
ranmar850
Posts: 2702
Date Joined: 12/08/12
Good question
Are they more popular on the East Coast? Pretty good bar jumpers--isn't that what Bruce Harris originally designed the Shark Cats as? I know that all the original marketing was about that. Virtually all of the river estuaries over there have a bar to cross, one thing we thankfully don't have to contend with much over here (..Walpole?) I mean, between the Swan and the Gascoyne, about 500nm of coast, we only have one river open to the sea
Are the big Naiads (RIB's)more popular over here?
As to mr Peter Webster, he certainly has his personal preferences, and they show--I take his reviews with as big as grain of salt as I do any reviews,because you don't know who's paying for it.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
East Coast
When cats first came out many of the east coast sea rescue groups got theirs at a never to be offered again bargain price as a way of promoting them as the thing to buy.
Yes they are good at crossing river mouth bars but can be treacherous in following and on the quarter sea. Having been out on quite a lot of them and like others have never felt entirely safe.
Too many roll over accidents for my liking to ever have the thought of purchasing one. When we were looking at a new recue vessel for Carnarvon, a cat was the very first one we discarded from our selection list, so others had the same opinion as me.
resurgence
Posts: 573
Date Joined: 23/04/14
Did some research
Seems that Freo Sea Rescue are about the only ones that have a significant number of cats (3). Most other sea rescue groups along the WA coast appear to have mainly RIB's, with a few other odd ones thrown in.
carnarvonite
Posts: 8627
Date Joined: 24/07/07
Naiads
The majority of them have Naiads with a few Air Riders thrown in ranging from 7.5 through to 12 metres