Is a good point mate and I agree something should and needs to be done but still can run into some issues. Taking of only males means you can get a shift in the population structure of the area - i:e bugger all big males to breed with the shiteloads of available females. Mabye you could just impose a limit on how many females you can take - such as with a bag limit of 20 crabs you could have 5 females.

Tighter bag limits would be my pick for the area as 20 crabs each is a bloody joke. Shit I would be happy with 10 myself.

Gully

I know up in the kimberly when i was there they tell you not to place the female mud crabs back as it creates an inbalance within the breeding. An aboriginal elder up there showed me on a full moon when the crabs were breeding there was plenty of females walking around looking for a mate, something that i will never forget. I dont know if it is the same thing with mannas but i beleive it would be. In the past when i have caught crabs in perth/mandurah i dont put the females back unless they are in row or undersize.

Hope this interests some of you. Cheers Chris

Gullys comment is a great one as i also beleive that 10 crabs each is shit loads, you can always go out the next week to get some more if need be. Actually think about how many you really do need for a feed, and when do you usally go out on your own anyway.

Last season was checked over by the fisheries guys at Dawesville. He commented on the fact that we didn't have any females in our catch, on which I stated that we'd only caught two size females that day so I released them (thinking along the same lines as the above proposal). Fisheries officer advised me to take legal females as well otherwise the system would become unbalanced if everyone released there females as well.

Doesn't seem right, but hey, who really knows.

John

Some very good questions about the numbers of males and female crabs needed.

Here's some info from http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/frr/frr121/index.php?0401 "Synopsis of the biology and exploitation of the blue swimmer crab in Western Australia" could indicate that not as many males as females are needed.

2.3.3 Life history

The time for a complete reproductive cycle varies according to annual temperature variations. Spawning takes place all year in tropical and subtropical waters. Reproduction in temperate regions is restricted to the warmer months. In these regions, blue swimmer crabs form breeding pairs and mating takes place during the late summer (January to March) moult of the female once they have spawned using sperm from the previous year’s mating. The male courting response is triggered by a pheromone released by the female. The courtship behaviour of P. pelagicus is described by Fielder and Eales (1972). Mature males moult some weeks before the maturing females, and each male carries a female clasped beneath him for 4-10 days before she moults. Mating occurs immediately after the female has moulted and when the shell is still soft. Males can mate with a number of females during the season. Most of the large mature females mate only once a year, because they moult only once a year, but receive enough sperm to fertilise millions of eggs. Juvenile females often reach maturity in the middle of summer at about a year old. Some of these will mate and spawn during that summer.
=====

Lots more info in that paper.

In my opinion, a closed season on female crabs must be tried - if only to see if it actually does make any difference to crab numbers, as logic says it should.

TerryF
=====

Beavering away in the background......

I think it wouldnt be a issue, out of all the crabs I saw in the water on the weekend I only saw 2or3 females.
Jams
THE LAZY FISHERMAN

i reckon there should be a bann on taking female crabs because some time in the crabs life its going to breed
which will make crab catches alot higher in years to come
but its pretty much impossible to make that a ban...even if it did happen people would still take female crabs..but still the crab stocks will still improve over the years

cheers
colv

Only keeps the honest ones honest! Bring on the female bann, its sounds like not many females around!

yes there should be a ban on taking females and yes there should also be a drop in limits. did you know tho that the crabbers in warnbro sound are taking alot more females than males to make a quota. unfortunately the crabs are slowly dwindling compared to other years where you would pull three or four at a time.i dont eat crab but we dont take our limit( could if we wanted to.) But if we take the males and how much fun could you have being a crab with two penis's, gees its hard enough with one some nights. ha ha. if we only take males then what will shag the females in future years. we need a balance or at leats drop limits down. ten crab per person is heaps. i mena who can eat twenty crabs in one sitting. we have limits on alot of other species so that we can sustain or at least try for future years to come. look at cockburn sound no crab there now due to over fished. how many times did anyone snorkelling first thing in the morning se a full pro pot over the last few years. i know i did many a time. well thats my opinion anywyas

What is the cause? Is it over fishing? Is it environmental impact? Is it natural fluctuations in crab populations? The reactive, quick fix solution is to impose bag limits and restrictions to be seen to be doing something and the vast majority of fishermen are only too happy to go along with it. We all want healthy fish stocks. It would be tragic if it's because the systems are unhealthy. A hell of a lot harder to fix.

but isnt that what the government groups do check the systems try fix whatwe have stuffed over long periods of time. the estuary looks very healthy atm. lots of clear water birds and heaps of dolphins.
it could also be a combination of alot of things.

Restrictions are the solution to overfishing. But what you are seeing in the Peel system is probably due to many factors, each with their own solution. Government's certainly do try to check on the health of our systems. But at the end of the day government is a popularity contest. Cockburn is a great example. What do the people of Perth want? Water for their gardens and to wash their cars. The wheels of industry and development don't turn without some collateral damage.

Alas, regardless of the cause of low stocks, low stocks there are (well, i guess we are assuming there are) - it matters not to the crabs why their populations are low. I hate to see fisherpeople say "but its not necessarily our fault, why are we penalised?".
Overfishing could be defined as something like - catching more than the system can provide.
In this case the system is generally understood to have been majorly impacted by things like surrounding land use (fertiliser, piggery run-off causing blooms, reduced circulation from the canals, increased circulation from the Cut, and so on), and so is not functioning as healthily as it should. (Probably) therefore it cant provide as many crabs/fish. Therefore our limits should be reviewed and adjusted accordingly, without crying about being penalised, or our 'rights' being violated - fish and crab stocks will continue to decline whilst we whinge. At the same time of course, the land management issues also should be resolved, for the long-term health of the system, which ideally would allow it to function better, produce more crabs/fish and then our limits could be raised again. Of course it is partially about the politics of it, that they would be seen to be doing something to protect the stocks. But they actually WOULD be doing something to protect the stocks by adjusting limits, at least in the short term.
Any land management change is always going to happen over a long period of time, and involve far more politics and economics, in which time if we are allowed to take as much as we always have, by the time the land management problem is 'fixed' perhaps there would be too few crabs/fish to re-populate the new, healthy system?
Better than resisting limit changes would be campaigning for more of the land management changes to occur, to complement the limit changes.
What about a yearly (or 2 or 3 yearly) stock assessment in high impact places/fisheries like this, to guage how much is there this year/season, and review limits accordingly? A $20 saltwater fishing licence that might help pay for such a thing. Dont want to be paying for licences of course but if that is the only way for it to happen...Of course then there would be problems educating people about the new limits etc - but I reckon they would be surmountable, with a decent publicity drive, paid for in part by the licence fee.
Dammit, I've been throwing females back all these years, only to learn today that perhaps I shouldnt have!! D'oh! Now i know
hehe - so many parallels to be drawn with human mating and female abundances...I'm just gonna sit here laughing to myself...couldnt possibly write them all out!!!
Ewan

last 3 times ive been out crabing, we have only caught blue mana's not 1 femal at all and every time we came back with our 24bag limit. so u do the maths

Your on the money again in my opinion Ewan. Lots of other variables which can be the cause of the lower stocks that should be evaluated and reviewed inline with the pressure placed on them by recreational and professional fishermen.

The loss of rights is what causes us to whinge in my opinion, even if it is ultimately going to benefit us in the long term, not everyone can see that and fear of change has always been one of the biggest hinderances in progression in almost any field. I think that if we are proactive in trying to reduce the pressure on crabs by finding a method which increases the potential for them to re-stock, (no take of females) that should be first and foremost. But, the information provided about unbalancing the system is also an extremely important consideration. A secondary reaction would be to try and reduce the pressure placed on them whilst still maintaining a balance where the stakeholders can enjoy spending a day out on the water with the added benefit of a few crabs for dinner and without the issue of loss of rights which seems to upset rec fishermen the most.

I went crabbing on both Friday and Sunday, to try different techniques, different spots and to try and determine what the catch rate was and get an idea of how many boats/scoupers are out there. On Friday we got about 13 female crabs, in the deeper water where about 10 of those would have been size. On Sunday we caught none in the nets, but saw about half as many as males when cruising and trolling the shallows. In the area we where fishing on both days there must have been nearly 50-60 boats if not more, at an allowable rate of 40 per boat = 2000+ if they get their limits, which many weren't, but assuming there were a lot more boats than that in the whole system, who knows really, but I would assume there would be anywhere over 2000 crabs being removed from the system daily, if not more, which would certainly fluctuate depending upon weather/school holidays and other variables. Is that sustainable? A very difficult question to answer I would think. But certainly something that should be considered, obviously there must be enough of a problem in Cockburn sound that it needs to be closed, is the Peel next??

i reckon no females, males taste better, lower the bag limit and put a season for profesonal fisherman for crabs.

but its sad when u find 100's of undersize crabshells on the banks from were people have cooked and eaten them down ther, or finding crabs floating with spear holes in them, i c it all the time.

One of the best years for crabbing in a long time on most accounts in bunno still heaps of big blue's being caught regularly

Tackle Dangler

yeah i thinks its a good year for mandurah, lucky for the crabs some people dont no how to crab, just like fishing people dnt catch fish cos they dont no how (some wierd rigs out ther).

Word along the grapevine is that in the next year or two there will be reductions in the blue manner crab limit, to 10 per person.

There are also going to be reductions in the 20kg amount of fillets/fish possession limits. I will keep you informed as I hear more.

From what I read in the paper the other day Matt it was 10 per person 20 per boat. Still seems extreme and again it is only the few that spoil it for everyone, as well as those people that live local and decide to crab every single day! Last season I think I managed a total of only around 20 crabs as it was. Personaly I am not a big fan of crabs as I get a slight alergic reaction toi eating them. But I enjoy the hunt and am happy to just bring home half a dozen now and again for a feed otherwise anymore and they get given away.

James

THE LAZY FISHERMAN

* Proud supporter of BAILEYS BAIT BOX *

MSN/

I agree there should be a ban on taking the females, I never do anyway as i don't think it's right.

about the Pros, a friends son who works the sound said its rip,sh-t and bust,and if they can't get a good haul they drop a line in as well!
Once again low funding from a so called rich government to the research department hits what we all love to do!
The idea of locking areas up due to the lack of information or lack of funding will in the future affect us again,just keep an eye on the cray fishing industry with the west coast fin fish changes! [still on the ministers desk for the last 18 months!]
Money talks!
We'll watch and do nothing again as they reduce number of crays we can take yet they sell it all overseas to a ever increasing market.
Don't agree on the ban of female crabs you need to ask WHY DO WE HAVE TOO and hopefully get the truth,so we can fix the problem.
we need this not as much for ourselves but for our kids if we want to pass this on to them.

The problem isn’t with the armatures. Take Cockburn sound for instance when the crabs are running in there you can count on one hand the amount of recs drop netting it wouldn’t even come close to the amount of nets attached to one pro line. When they used set nets that was better they only fished over the night and a smaller area now with the introduction of pots in the peak they are fishing them all day every day over the whole sound. We as armatures are only a small speck of sand on a long beach in comparison to the pros .The closure is in there best interest when it reopens what has been put in place to protect the crabs and the armatures from the pros over exploiting is the question i would like to know

Nothing beats a day on the water catching a fish is just a bonus

A reduce boat limit of crabs is fine for me as a rec but the comercial sector needs cuts also. The ideal world would be to have them payed out and with a big crab fishery(commercial) in places like S/Bay etc why do we need com's in Cockburn & the Peel anyway

I'm sure there's reasons ie political red tape & $$$ would be involved!

Returning female crabs back to the water is good :)

JMO

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Any of you guys seen this, thought you would of Ryan, been out for a couple of weeks now,

http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/pub/BlueSwimmerCrabProtection/index.php?0102

Hey for the record , i throw the females back, the swan is my choice for crabbing and the jenny's go back. Its all about fishing pressure, you wait, 2007 will be the year to be remembered when it comes to fisheries management especially demersals

Wally

Snapper ar'nt looking to good at the moment hey Wally?
Even with the cockburn closures their numbers will take years to recover.
They will find it harder in the coming years as an island will
pop up on a big area of shagging ground if the Export companies
get there way.

A step in the right direction for the blue manna fishery Wally. ;)

The one thing I will say though is sometimes its hard to know who to believe. The last time Fisheries checked my catch of manna's down Mandurah way, the officer commented on why I only had males in the esky. Told him I always throw back the females to preserve the fishery. He then proceeded to tell me that the Science boffins recommended keeping whatever you caught (male or female). By only keeping the males you affect the natural balance of male/female numbers.

Didn't seem right to me and I still let the jennies go.;)

John

quote A step in the right direction for the blue manna fishery Wally. ;)quote

yeah John would of liked a bit more pressure on the coms thou. As for taking just females. its what i have always done, ( only take a couple if we didn't get a blue, wink) my motto was a blue could service 20 females (eg). take the females and the blue hasn't nothing to service, ever seen a fight between blues fighting over a female. I have, before they ended up in my catch bag, but i never took a blue on top of a female,

rockpom your right about the pinks. but pinkies can recover quick with the right management strategies,jewies on the other hand are slower growing and don't have the spawning finesse as the pinks

wally

Yeh I did Wally but we the recs got cuts but the commercial Peel crab fishers didn't get any reduction at all!

Yes over the many years they have but they've halved (50%) the recs but (0%) to the PRO's this year...... that annoys me!

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Just my two cents worth, i have spent alot of time in the mandurah estuary and this year has been as good for crabs as any other. As for the taking of females i dont see this as a problem and am actually more concerned for the bluey's, Were i go prawning is were most of the crabs are breeding now and the females of all sizes would out number the males 60-1 easily. I have also noticed any new baby crabs you see are mostly females its getting harder and harder to find a male baby. The inbalance is already starting to occur and were are the males left to breed with all these females. Right now if we wanted a few crabs for a feed i personally wouldn't be taking the only 2 males of size there. I would take a few of the females the size and quantity of them this year is amazing. Just my opinion on what i have seen 1st hand over the years.

Another issue relating to crab numbers is the blowie plagues we have here we have noticed them attacking the maulting crabs when they are soft shelled. Would be good to see something done about them here

Has to agree with looking4mulloway and fishyink been a great year for crabs and a bonza for prawns may be a change in the way people fish for them .Then again more for the fishos that can fish ey .

Yeh I did Wally but we the recs got cuts but the commercial Peel crab fishers didn't get any reduction at all!

well they did Ryan ( if you read the paper) but not as much as the recs,in saying that thou what about the rights of others that don't wish to fish for crabs but love to eat them, they have just as much right as me and you, isn't it a community resource

Looking for mulloway. I am sure there will be a paper after this research that goes for 3 years. take the time and submit your thoughts, i don't fish there, so I am not going to comment, other then I know that population = pressure. is it sustainable

Wally

I actually am glad the bag limits have been reduced was just the thread title is "Ban on taking female crabs?Your opinion" which im not sure is the best way to go about helping our crab stocks.

Another issue relating to crab numbers is the blowie plagues we have here we have noticed them attacking the maulting crabs when they are soft shelled. Would be good to see something done about them here

just pulled out this paragraph i have been fishing crabbing prawning in the swan for as long as i can remember i have notest that when the blowies get into plage numbers the crabs and prawns both drop durasticly its my thoughts for sure the blowies atack the youngsters of both prawns and crabs

The ban for them was to protect the females during that period, hey could be wrong,
There is a 3 year study/ research thingy, I am sure when this is finished there will be more decision made on the new data, fisheries had to do something now in the interim and thats what we got, is it fair well I don't think so either
as for the commercials, it comes to supply and demand, they sell the crabs either on the side of the road or too the markets, who buys them, the public, maybe a few restaurants, The general Joe blow has just as much right to those crabs as me and you, who go catch our own, imo.
The question that needs to be asked, and its what I base everything on is it sustainable, I think no, especially after hey closed cockburn we need too restrict what comes out, to do that you need to restrict the numbers that get them,if that means have a rec licence for crabs, the money collected buys out a few pros' so be it. I don't know its just a idea, all I know is the pressure on the peel /Harvey crabs isn't going to decrease any time soon
Wally

You better hope that if a licence did become reality the money doesn't disapear into the Fed Gov hands Wally!

gee Rock pom sounds like a threat, insert smiley here

It wouldn't happen, no one would back a licence if it went into government coffers,

In saying that thou, I would, hell I pay, I get a say, it gives me a piece of paper saying you paid, you get access just like the commercials. until that day, recreational fisherman will keep copping it up the bum, thats a fact

Wally

ps dont turn this into another licence debate,please

No threats here Wally Just opinions

No threats here Wally Just opinions

well hopefully you can see where I got the threat rock Pom, YOU better hope it doesn't go into government coffers. insert smiley here, Adam ya need smileys ( wink)

honestly mate I don't care where it goes, as long as we get that access right and to be able too take away that access right if a dipsh&t doesn't comply,

Wally

QUOTE{Yeh I did Wally but we the recs got cuts but the commercial Peel crab fishers didn't get any reduction at all!

well they did Ryan ( if you read the paper) but not as much as the recs,in saying that thou what about the rights of others that don't wish to fish for crabs but love to eat them, they have just as much right as me and you, isn't it a community resource QUOTE}

Wally, there was no reduction to the com's quoter at all, just a 2 month BAN which is what we the recs got also....(fair) and I'm glad it's in place.

But my point was that if the catch rate has dropped (anecdotal reports have shown this) then the Fisheries reaction by reducing the recs by 50% is good BUT com's 0% ....that was my point :)

JMO

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