Catch and release
Submitted by Kingfisher549 on Wed, 2010-07-07 21:29
Went out on Wednesday from geraldton and fished in 32m of water, over 3 hours got 10 dhies between my mate KP and myself, only one was size and got a good cod as well. Released the other 9 dhies using a release weight all looked in good condition as they went down. Still cant get it out of my head that most of these fish will die due to internal damage being pulled up from that depths. Has anybody got figures on survival rates?
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till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
Not sure who gave you the
Not sure who gave you the stats that most will die from internal injuries, but plenty of tagged dhufish have been recaptured when going down in quite terrible states.
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
And can you show us where
And can you show us where you got your stats of "plenty of tagged Dhufish have been recaptured when going down in quite TERRIBLE states"? I would really like some of your proof about this as I am quite interested in any real scientific research you have done on the subject.
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
Hi Fathom, while you were
Hi Fathom,
while you were busy having a whinge on the internet, forum members contributed to the voluntary dhufish tagging program run by recfishwest.
You can read about it here; Tagging and Research Program
You would be able to read board members tales of recaptureshere, I believe Andy Mac had a recapture awhile back?
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
nah, I wasnt whinging I was
nah, I wasnt whinging I was working with the government scientists doing tag and release research of Dhufish at Jurien Bay. I could tell you how that panned out but I have signed a confidential release form.
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
No real suprise you have a
No real suprise you have a well-formulated excuse for backing out of another argument.
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
Not backing out of any
Not backing out of any argument, whats your problem? and what is this well formulated exuse you talk about?
Edit...I asked what YOU have done
roberta
Posts: 2773
Date Joined: 08/07/08
If that was about
9yrs ago old fart's mate was on that boat, he didn't have to sign a confidential form. I can tell you that they where caught in all depths, put down in cages (divers inspected cages before they were brought up) and brought up the next day, 99% scientifically, of all dhuies caught where dead. Fisheries did a complete catch and release with different forms of releasing/depths, dhuie's 99% died, including over size and under size all from different depths. His mates conclusion (non-scientific or expert opinion) was that it didn't matter how you released some under size dhuies, most died, as some were brought up blown bags, eyes bulging, they didn't go back.
Just old farts mates honest opinion over the 3 day trial with fisheries in Jurien Bay.
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soupster51
Posts: 2724
Date Joined: 29/11/06
Even more reason
Even more reason to wind them up as slow as you can while maintaining pressure on the fish.
Were the fish in these experiments skull-dragged to the surface at speed or brought up carefully?
The best reason for doing what's right today is tomorrow.
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
Mainly "skulled dragged" and
Mainly "skulled dragged" and we had a stop watch timing us from hook-up to surface.
soupster51
Posts: 2724
Date Joined: 29/11/06
More Research
Stands to reason that maybe they should do the experiment again slowly bringing the fish up and giving them a deco stop at 5 metres or so. You could only hope that this would prove that the survival rate is a little higher than the 1% witnessed in the first experiment when some care is taken.
The best reason for doing what's right today is tomorrow.
roberta
Posts: 2773
Date Joined: 08/07/08
In the 3 day trial
old farts mate was on they where brought up by rod/reel, and alvey winches. The experienment did suggest that the alvey winches had a better release (release/weights) than rods. Fisheries didn't publility state that winches were better, just a group discussion and some findings, suggested alvey winches were the way to go, rather than pump action of the rod/reel. Also all fish were timed, some to bring up very slowly, some to be brought up as a very excited amatuer would, bring them up fast, remember its a experiement, not knocking rod/reel fisho's, they tried to visualise all fishing habits.
Ginger Tablets Rock
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Nah Jamie, they were both Snapper not Dhuies
My recaptures were both Snapper.
Agree with what most have said re the slow ascent and decompression stop. You can see it in action on a few of the Mindarie Mayhem vids I did a while back. You can actually see the bubbles of air being released by this method.
Do they survive? I think there is sufficient evidence from recaptures to suggest they have a better chance if released with a release weight. Just because the recapture numbers aren't high it doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of "once bitten twice shy" dhuies out there that have been released but not yet recaptured.
If you doubt that statement then just think how it can possibly be that a dhuie can live past 20 years and grow to 20+kgs all the while avoiding being caught.
Maybe, just maybe the released tagged dhuies will still be out there growing bigger and bigger and avoiding our hooks (....for the time being)
That's the way I prefer to think of it.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18026
Date Joined: 11/03/08
sounds like it was a great
sounds like it was a great session. things seem to be looking up for the fish population all along the coast with so many dhuies and pinkies being taken and released
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
Kingfisher549
Posts: 328
Date Joined: 15/09/09
Agree
I agree with Fathom, cant see how a fish pulled from deep water with its guts out its mouth or eyes bigger than a goldfishes put down on a weight will increase its chances.
All I think it does is make us feel good because we dont see it float away.
Baron Sportsman Custom
Faulkner Family
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Date Joined: 11/03/08
i feel even if only 3 or 4
i feel even if only 3 or 4 fish released with a weight survived its better than just letting them float away.So just lets forget about the arguement as it will go no where fast. KIngfisher , you did the right thing using the weight weather it works or not, thats what they are there for
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
Just bring your fish up very
Just bring your fish up very slowly if you think it could be a Dhufish, that is the best reccomendation I can offer
Paul G
Posts: 5215
Date Joined: 12/12/07
If your fish Hit the top
If your fish Hit the top with there guts out mouth and I eyes bulging in 32m of water then you are the main problem.Seems to me your bringing the fish up to quick,I have hardly ever had to use a release weight as most fish are in good condition when brought up slowly. Blackass are worse than a dhuie to release .I have caught dhufish which i have released in the 40m+ Try leaving the fish 5m under the boat for a couple of minutes as this will help remove some of the air trapped in it gut.
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slam
Posts: 168
Date Joined: 09/09/09
Good Idea
I always leave a fish, especially undersize, under the boat for a few minutes & you can normally see the air getting released. They will generally release very well after that without the aid of the weight.
Still there is no excuse for ripping a fish from the depth!
Indiana
Posts: 307
Date Joined: 15/12/09
Slow Accent Critical
I Agree with Paul .
It's the rate of accent thats the critical issue here .......not the depth!
Most people (not everyone) want to use a line that can anchor the boat when it gets caught on the bottom .
If people were prepared to fish with lighter gear ,they wouldn't be able to skull drag everything they hook to the surface. I dont know where the skill is in using a tow rope to winch demersals of the bottom .
Just My Opinion ! .......Not pointing at anyone
" IF YOUR NOT GOING TO EAT IT ......PUT IT BACK WHERE YOU CAUGHT IT"
Pete D
Posts: 1681
Date Joined: 07/06/07
Exactly what Paul said - up
Exactly what Paul said - up slow and stop at 5m. Teach this to all new fishos on my boat...and the release weight is now in the boat brief for new fishos aswell.
Cheers Pete
West Coast
Posts: 331
Date Joined: 10/12/07
100’s of study’s done.
The survival rate of released fish is not a new issue. Do a quick internet search and you will find more than enough information to form an opinion. This issue has been discussed plenty of times on here before, and I certainly have a strong opinion that, at best, released fish struggle. I suppose we should be mindful of this when we are fishing, and the impact we are having on those fish that we do not bring in.
Light Lines – sorry Indiana I disagree. I think light lines extend the fight way too long, the fish are stressed, and they come up affected by the depth as well. Ok they may not have bulging eyes, but they will float on the surface. If there is any drift they are planed to the surface and pop up 20m behind the boat. Most of the fished released are probably because they are u/size and light lines can still bring them up quick anyway. With heavier lines you can control the ascent and the fight. With the diameter and technology of lines these days I think 24kg braid is a good compromise…but maybe that is what your refer to as light anyway.
There seems to be a few fish around at the moment so perhaps we are on the right track. Time will tell.
Paul G
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Date Joined: 12/12/07
9kg -15kg braid will near
9kg -15kg braid will near anchor you boat .We have had to put the boat in gear to snap it when we cant get it of the bottom .There is no dought some die but I know for a fact from my own reserch the they do servive if looked after .We can only do our best to ensure the servival of the fish,and the rest is up to mother nature I guess..
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Kingfisher549
Posts: 328
Date Joined: 15/09/09
Opening statement
If ppl would like to read my opening statement I clearly stated that the fish were in good condition. They had been brought to the surface slowly and held under the boat and seemed to be in good condition when released on weight. My question was "What internal damage is done" not the physical that we can see eg: stomach out of mouth.
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Fathom
Posts: 619
Date Joined: 18/04/08
I have been told by
I have been told by scientists that although they might look fine they possibly have burst blood vessels in their brain. They might swim off ok but are more or less brain dead and wont survive.
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
To quote from the
To quote from the recfishwest study
• The deepest recapture of a dhufish to date is 90 metres released using a Release Weight (shotline).
Tag 33759 - West Australian Dhufish
Originally released hy shotline Release Weight in 86 metres, recaptured in the same area in 90 metres after 350 days at liberty.
Tag 18148 - West Australian Dhufish Originally released by shotline Release Weight in 50 metres, recaptured by the same fisherman in the same place 29 days later.
On capture this small dhufish had its stomach pushed into its mouth due to pressure injury but was otherwise in good condition and released with a release weight. This recapture demonstrates that small dhufish can survive barotrauma with the correct release treatment.
cudbfishn
Posts: 1311
Date Joined: 06/04/09
highstick that fish!!!!
highstick that fish!!!! lol
nice cod btw.
West Coast
Posts: 331
Date Joined: 10/12/07
Recfishwest study??
Read the abstract from this scientific report from specific tests on Dhufish. Overall death rate for released fish 51%. 21% died when released in depth from 0 -14m going up to 86% death rates in waters 45-59m.
So I suppose as Till said fish will survive, and will be recaptured, but it is probably why in the recfishwest study Till quotes they are referred to as “Notable Recaptures”
We just have to do our best and the methods/techniques in this thread must help enormously.
But in all reality Kingfisher whilst you only bought one dhuie in, you probably removed a few more!!
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6N-4GNCFW4-2&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1394158354&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=609c96f73b4ad8b1052893e8360e5397
allrounder
Posts: 1853
Date Joined: 10/11/08
I have more than enough evidence over the years
To give me piece of mind that if handled right they have a good chance of survival.In the process of getting some more tags in myself and another person up my way is recapturing his tagged fish on a very regular basis.He has tagged near on 40 fish and has a very high return.The fish in trap research was always going to have a high fatality rate.
So tell me have you got your info from years on the water or hours on the internet?
DieHard
Posts: 1823
Date Joined: 06/10/08
Not sure on this... but we
Not sure on this...
but we used to skull drag (dad and i) fish up from 27m, i no its wrong but we were never tought right. the fish were wrasse they always used to die :'(
anywayz in the last year we reel in then stop then slowly slowly reel in, now all of our wrasse captures have swam back down ALL OF THEM. dont know if they survived but they still had a kick and a half when released.
DieHard – The Official “Ray & Shark” Chaser!
Reefmonkey
Posts: 711
Date Joined: 22/09/08
Last 20
U would have to think from a diving point of veiw it would be the last 20meters and then more so the last 10 meters than would do the most(75% of the volume of air) damage so blowing out a dhui or any fish. Now always best to go easy all the way but for the first ten meters(if fishing deeper than 30m) u could give it some muscle get it off the bottom but yea always best to go easy with all fish for sure.
Dave J.
Kingfisher549
Posts: 328
Date Joined: 15/09/09
Tag
Got a lot of tags sitting in the shed so I think I will start my own study of the area I fish out from Geraldton as well as forwarding the records to ANSA.
Still agree with Fathom regarding internal damage but I can only hope that I am wrong.
Baron Sportsman Custom