I think you are spot on Terry. I have refrained from making any comment on these topics on a number of forums for the exact reasons you point out and because it seems that no matter how diplomatic you are someone gets their knickers in a knot and starts getting personal. I have little tollerance for that sort of reaction so I stand on the sidelines and shake my head in frustration most times.

This recent thread did prompt me however to take a look at all of Wally's posts on the Zone 5 thread at wangler and I found that there were some very good points made there, especially by Tony H and Vincent C who both quite rightly point out that "Data is King" when trying to convince a politician or academic about an issue. As a recent MBA graduate I have spent the past several years doing thesis after thesis and I know that you need to read copious amounts to get just one small usable bit of relevant and supportive data. I can see how people can get so passionate about it and to Wally and Splash's credit they must have done a huge amount of work to get the proposal put together. Good on them I say, but good on Adam too for having the guts to stand up for what he believes in with regards to the pelagics in the chicken run. Ive never fished Rotto in about 20 years of boating so I can't really join the debate with any authority or confidence.

I certainly think there have been some massive misunderstandings along the way with Wally somehow concluding that this site is full of "freezer fillers", nothing could be further than the truth from what I have read and experienced. I can also understand how others may have reacted when within a couple of posts there are inflamatory comments being made by someone who doesn't frequent the site all that much. It had me wondering who the hell this Wally character was until I checked wangler and worked it all out. Like you say it is easy for someone to misinterpret the written word as there is no substitute for intonnation, body language and a knowledge of the person you are talking to. Maybe a few more posts on general non-political threads will get everyone onside with eachother and perhaps help strengthen the tollerance for when someone has a snipe.

Anyway its good to get the topic opened up again, who knows an old salty dog like myself might just be tempted to contribute a bit more on the political threads now that I have read a fair bit more on the subject. Thanks Wally and Trouty for spiking my interest sufficiently to have a bit of a read.

For a virtual newbie in the fishing internet site business I think Adam has done a fantastic job as a one man band. The job of moderator will be a biggy as this site grows and grows. I think he will need some help a lot sooner than he thinks.

Best of luck Terry with all your beavering, and please let Wally know he is most welcome on these forums in my book, after all I think we are all on the side of the fish and the sustainability of our chosen sport.

Takes me back to my schoolyard days when you have your first blue with a guy and the next day you realise that you have heaps in common and you end up being best mates. Hope that happens here, for all our sakes and for the fishes sake.

Well, I have plenty to say, but for the moment I think both of you have hit the nail on the head. So I will go and put another hour into more pressing deadlines and come back to this with further thoughts and a bit more of a clear head. I will certainly state for the mean time that moderating is no easy job!

what ever, I will leave it too you guys too sort, i am sick of banging my head, honestly, if anyone that understand one ounce of fisheries management and has fished the metro demersals hopefully ya can understand that ya rights need to be thrown out the window

andy mac what ever ya read promise me one thing, that ya dont listen too that seeth efrican dick4head, he hasnt a clue on where the perth metro fishery needs too be, and his posts on that topic explain too me that he really is a compulsive liar,what was is data talks bullshit walks, well he walked away when he got found out that he is full of bullsh%t when he claimed too catch fish in shark bay, from our good friend's ponds

if ya wish too have some sort of incling too where I am coming from, read the state of fisheries reports from the last ten years, then read terry f's thread on dhuie workshop minutes, that should get ya interested if ya give a sh&t. heaps more in IFM, Fisheries web site is full of info if ya care too read.

dont reply cause I wont

Wally

Didn't even know it had been locked!
Adam does a great job as a one man band and what he can within limits!
The site has a shortfall in that there are no emoticons which help to let people know in what manner a comment is made!
The written word on it's own is sadly lacking in that respect!
Locking threads chastising posters etc is counter productive in that IMHO it drives members away - i.e doesn't attract them!
If you can't attract members and if the format helps to drive them away, then the causal factors need to be examined!

Terrys tirade, makes his point - he sees HIS personal big picture!
Others may see a similar Big Picture
Others may have a vastly different Big Picture
Others may just want to hone in on minor trivial points!
Others might want to dissagree with every point!

Isn't that what democracys all about - "I might not agree with / like what you say, but would die to defend your right to say it?

I do not consider the other side a boogey man whome we must all remain silent unlkess they garner something that might assist them!

I personally suspect a lot of Terrys "dislike / angst" is for anyone who doesn't agree 100% with him!

Even someone who offers a contribution in a well intentioned spirit is considered a potential threat!

I find terrys posts "detailed" to the point at times of being almost tiesome (where does he get the time to rationalise everything let alone post it too so many websites!!)

Facts are a LOT of people can't stomach the Wangler website or the clique who post there!

Terry tries to ride in and out of as many websites as possible with issues of significance to all anglers in the hope f rallying support or uniting the troops - but no mater the threat I don't believe anglers have faced a significant enough threat from without to unite and forget past issues!

For Terry to be able to cross so many "boundaries" betweeen anglers who all hate each others guts - is asking for trouble guaranteed almost 100% of the time from one or another of the cliques!!

IMHO - he would be best served with a decidcated website!

Maybe he should be the FRA secretary or whatever - have his own fishing politics website that he runs and administers and mooderates and everyone who wants to have some input can go there onto "neutral ground" with Terry the referee to control what the site looks like to each other and our enemys, and make sure the bigger picture is protected!

It's hard to have input on a subject when the same original posts exist at each site but threads develop differently at ech site - you can't even cut n paste your pertinent remarks - you have to edit them for each thread - intoduce points tha arent on others etc etc!

My biggest criticism of Terrys efforts are that the mutiple postings at so mny sites fracture the responses and guarantee a division within ranks and present a disorganised rabble to our critics, to mention tryingto keep up with the sheer volume and complexity is very frustrating for those who try and contribute!

I suspect Terry is a "victim of his success" due to an innapropriate medium of "multiple postings"!

If I hate Wangler - why should I have to read their threads to undertsand fully what Terry and Wally each think and read them going toe to toe in 3 different places simultaneously!?

It's all too much frankly and counter productive to uniting fishermen - if anything it's fracturing them further IMHO!

One webste on Fishing politics run by Terry so he can control it how he wishes too! Those who want to help Terry out with posts go there and do so and he gets to run it how he wants!

It would work for me!

Cheers!

For others who may have read that post, perhaps I should elucidate. My reference to Tony H and Vincent C was in respect of their specific calls for hard data to compliment the anecdotal evidence collected already, in order to convince the decision makers of the same point that Wally and Splash were trying to make(at least that's how I interpretted it). Having been a senior decision maker for a very large company for several years those comments resonnated with me and made sense. I thought their initial well argued points were quite valid and contributed to the topic in amongst a lot of off point stuff. Whether they originate from Timbuktu or down town Balga has got nothing to do with anyone's points being more or less valid. Similarly just because one hasn't spent as much time on the water here as another doesn't mean that person can't draw from their experiences in other parts of the world. That was the point that they were trying to make, ie, get some research to corroborate your gut feelings and you have a better chance of convincing someone who is accountable. That's helping rather than hindering in my book.

IMHO There needs to be hard data to support the collective wisdom of us old fishers, unfortunately it is often left to those with passion and impatience to argue the point with limited ammunition and rightfully feel the frustration of banging ones head against a wall. Those such as Terry and Frank get caught in the crossfire and must have very strong constitutions to constantly be sniped at from all angles. I just hope that level heads prevail and all sides drop the personal attacks and we continue the debate passionately but respectfully. The stronger man is the one who cops it on the chin and carries on without resorting to abuse.

As for Terry having his own site I don;t think that would work Im afraid, Flywest, as no-one but you and Wally would visit him.
Poor Terry is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't post on everyones sites. So a solution to that is far from easy. Lateral thinking at its best though mate....love your work.

Cheers
Andy Mac

I try Andy!

As I see it with his own site - Terry could still post his links to all and every web site - with the thread locked and all replies on the subject at his website / controlled by him!

Least that waY terry gets what he wants - the ability to "control" whats published under a thread he initiates! (Lest we say something the boogey men can use against us!)

Why not give Terry that capability?

If he doesn't use it wisely people won't visit or post, if he does hsi website will grow from strength to strength!

It would be much easier to contribute if it wasn't scattered all over the internet like a mad womans breakfast as it is at present IMHO!

I'd let go that suggestion tho (of his own website) if someone could come up with a betetr arrangement!

I don't see that just Wally & I would visit a web site run by Terry Andy?, I think if he posted his links everywhere - everyone would show up and read and comment - but at least it wouldn't be 4 or more 'similar' threads with different comments at 4 or more websites, that can't possibly be distilled down into 'one coherent statement of position' on behalf of anglers for dissemination to the pollys and boogey mens (and press etc) alike!

Why not Terrys good at what he does!

Why not put that ability to the best use - how much of Terrys time is wasted agruing the case for the same thing at 4 different places in 4 different threads with 4 different groups of anglers who won't talk to each other, without ripping each others throats out?

Who knows it might be just the 'glavanising effect' Rec Fishing needs to get anglers to work and cooperate together against a common foe (everyone else but us)!

Whats Terry think?
Does he get 'frustrated' with all the 'different threads on the same subject' with different groups responding differently at each website and existing forum membership cultures affecting the cceptance or otherwse of what he posts / requests in the way of action he would like Anglers to take?

Interested to hear what Terry thinks would most benefit his cause in this respect??

Cheers!

I think the concept of a separate site does have merit however the "if you build it they will come" scenario rarely works. I think a lot of thought would need to be put into the various sites co-operating to channel fisho's onto the official site before it got any impetus.

As for Terry controlling what gets published, I don;t think that is his agenda, it could come across like that if you "choose" to read it that way, but I think he is just making the point that we need to be a little more aware of what we say and how it can be misinterpretted and used against recfishers by those with polar views. I'm all for free speech and welcome dissent, but I detest reading abuse on any forum as it is the most cowardly form of communication there is. Easy to hide behind a computer and slag someone off, not so easy to do it face to face. Though I am sure some people are very good at that form of communication as well. The job of a moderator as Terry says is to manage not censor, and I totally agree with him there. I don;t want to read (however entertaining it might be at someone elses expense) a heap of abuse, sarcasm and vitreole directed at people who don;t "appear" to deserve it. That sort of stuff needs to be managed. If a separate site for such political debate existed you would surely require Terry to be actively involved with posting, but have an independant moderator / mediator to keep things on point. Jeez wouldn't that be a great job!

I dare say if I was in Terry's shoes, I would be very frustrated with having to post on multiple sites, but I don;t speak for him and neither should any of us.

No terry is definitely his own man and someone who thinks for himself ad articulates his thoughts well. I suspect he has some difficulty (as admittedly do I) with those who might hold an opinion somewhat different than his, or who might challenge his interpetation of data at times, but he is definitely a gentleman and human just like the rest of us!!

As for sarcasm, vitreol, and whatever else - well - yes and no!
It all depends!
With a lack of emoticons here it is impossible to tell the authors intention in whats written, be it in jest, in support, sacrasticly, or sympathetically for example IMHO!

I think to my participation in the "Florida Sportsmans" 'offtopic forum, where without emoticons - a bloodbath would ensue, from just the written word!

But with all the "mood depictions" of a wink, thumbup, rolleyes, tooth (redneck) etc etc etc etc etc, some of the most humorous threads I've ever ead are to be found there!

I recall one about a human head found floating in the water off Florida!

First response!
"Any dolhin on it?"
Next!
"They found Wilson!"
Next!
"Thanks for the heads up!"
Next!
"I hope they keep looking!
(Two heads are better than one)"
Next!
"Going diving cost that guy an arm and a leg"

Well - you get the idea - all very insensitive comments (about a missing floridian on a florida website, BUT - when you see the emoticons - winks grins etc etc, you realise tis all in fun and they are all takin th pizz etc etc!

And frankly thats whats missing here!

The ability to convey a emotion / tone makes a LOT of difference in how the posts are to be interpeted!

We accuse some of posting in an appropriate manner - but how would we know in a forum unable to convey any sense of tenor!

Theres something like 127 different meanings of the Aussie word bastard - yet strictly speking it's probably considered impolite and a swearword - yet it might have been intended as the most sincere form of friendly greeting by it's author!

We can't blame posters for a deficiency in the forum format IMHO!

That's how I see it, anyway!

Cheers!

No comment required.

I agree!

Though I know Adam has a technical view on this that may be a stumbling block.

So without the emoticons there is no substitute IMHO for getting to know your fellow poster as best you can on a range of topics, Jeez that's the only way I have been able to appreciate your style, witt and inimitable turn of a phrase Mr Flywest. (wink wink)(lol)

i think you are mellowing flywest...but i don't see it as a weakness!!

Thats probably more like it - going soft in my old age! LOL!

I still get on me soapbox some days, just depends on who's pushed my buttons today and how many handfulls of happy pills I've swallowed!

Thats the great thing aboout scitzophrenia - your never alone for long! LOL LOL

I reckon we should have a fishwrecked get together one dy for a BBQ fish and a cold ale maybe?

Whata bout a Firday night fishwrecked prawning night or something equally stoopid?

Just an idea!

Cheers!

Thanks for the comments.

I had the first post just about finalised and ready to post when Adam contacted me about some of the comments people posted in the Rottnest thread.

I was very happy with that long phone discussion with Adam and will leave it to Adam to say whatever he wants to say about the points made in this thread and in our discussion.

Posting on more than one place is about getting a message out to as many people as possible. A complaint often heard is "I didn't know anything about that....."

There are marine/ocean issues and river/estuary issues.

Western Angler, Fishing WA, Hotbite and Fishwrecked are local WA fishing sites dealing with all types of Western Australian fishing. Their readers might be interested in those marine/ocean topics.

River/estuary issues will usually be of special interest to Breammaster readers, and might also be of interest to some readers on all of those other Western Australian fishing forums.

Different responses on the forums come from the different sets of people involved. Some people don't read and/or don't post on some forums for various reasons.

The overlapping comments just come with trying to get information on local Western Australian issues out to as many Western Australian people as possible.

And often the comments add a lot which weren't thought of in another forum, so that's a positive, not a negative.

TerryF
=====

Beavering away in the background......

More coverage the better, personally I don't mind issues of importance being spread between two websites, three, more the merrier, if the message is being conveyed, the message that NEEDS to be conveyed, then all the better for WA anglers and concerned citizens. As moderator of fishwrecked I plan to support Terry in promoting these messages and if need be, protecting them.

What from Adam?

Guys like wally ormyself who might want to debate the issues or hold a different opinion on occssion?

Something wrong IMHO if you have to lock threads or drive posters away to protect Terry and his messages!

The facts are if people respond, contribute, debate, discuss etc then Terrys thread and hence message stays "active" and at the top of the board and more and more anglers see it!

If Terry's threads are just "public notices" that shlouldn't be debated, disussed, by anglers for fear of being ridiculed, chastised, deleated locked or banned, then for goddness sakes - lock each thread as he posts and his mesge will get out!

It won't stay there long because others will bypass it and it will scroll down the screen and gone!

Even negatove comment helps keep his post and hence message at the top!

Maybe lock his threads and add a sticky so they all remain permanently at the top for all to see in perpetuity if that serves the purpose!

So far Terrys the only one who at time sis not preared to debate discuss or defend his positions and statements!

I find no need for lengthy telephone converstations to defend my position, a quick post a PM or email should be sufficient IMHO.

We are all anglers - when it takes a full time 'referee' to get anglers to play nicely, then it's time to give away angling IMHO!

Have you thought of dedicating a forum specifically to Terrys threads maybe entitled "reglatory issues of concern to anglers" or something along those lines!

No one's trying to chase the man or his message away!

Whats needed IMHO - is the ability for him to manage his threads and the debates, discussions they engender as a result, so that he doesnt find it laborious or wish to quit alltogether!

There must be 100 ways that an be achieved without a armed stagecoach guard riding shotgun over every post and evert thread!

Set it up so the man can do what he has to do - he;s doing a good job IMHO - let him get on with it and give him the tools he needs to do that!

Alienating thepeople he wants to reach thru poor system tools or organisaton isn't helping the angling cause IMHO!

I think terrys a big enough boy not to need "protection" from a few wallys and trouty / flywests of this world, if given the authority and tools in a forum he has some control over!

He has shown at other websites he can handle suc authooority well so why not give him some form of mooderating control over a forum for his posts!

Seems simple to me - maybe there are good management or technical reasons it can't be effected quite so easily?

Whatever!

Cheers!

Flywest, What I mean by protect is that off-topic irrelevant discussion isn't necessary and only serves to get the back up of the person in question. This goes for every member of this site, not just Terry, I used his name in particular as environmental and political discussion encourages opinions which are emotive and passionate. There is certainly nothing wrong with that and I support those ideals. You are a man with vast knowledge and intellect, I have only just started to get to know you but it is obvious from your posts and the chats we have had, so I question why you resort back to having to dig at Terry when you have the ability to form a debate/discussion without me being required to 'ride the armed stage coach with a shotgun ready over every post n thread.'

I'm here to protect opinions and ideas and the people that post them on my site, not from being questioned or discussed, but from being attacked for no particular reason except trolling for bites. This statement is applicable to all members of the site, not just you, I promise.

Cheers,
Adam

Thats just it Adam, I'm not having a dig at Terry I'm saying he does a good job and should be given the tools he needs, to do that job as effectively as possible!

Would not giving Terry mooderator control over my posts in his own forum lsolve his probem? Would not his own forum help alleviate my frustration at his mass mailings on the same damn thing, in fishing forums all over the internet?

I keep proposing what seem like "simple solutions" to a simple problem that people seem intent to distill down to a "trouty / flywest is against me" phobia!

I'm not - but to even partake in a discussion or offer an alternate view etc is taken as a "challenge to authority" by me!

Whats the point of posting threads inviting comment and getting upset when people respond with comment???

If we only want threads where we all agree 100% of the time then the threads should say something like "All comments gladly recieved if you agree with me 100%, if not please dont reply!".

Robust discussion is good, robust debate is good - but when participation = "having a dig" from anglers who care - and try to contribute, then we need to look at the forum format and tools and how we are managing the issue IMHO.

Like I said Terrys a big boy more than capable of defending himself if you arm him with the tools - (mooderator powers over his own forum). How can I have a dig at him if he has mooderator powers over me in his own forum?

It's me suggesting it for crying out loud - does that not suggest I think it's a good idea and that I'm prepared to play along?

Terrry's phobia about myself and or Wally etc I am quite sure exists only in his own mind and the internet, not out here in the real world! For goodness sakes he's sat at my table and dined with me and my family and slept under our roof as our guest!

To suggest there is "a problem" - is rather silly in the extremem in my mind at least - I've never known Terry to need any protection from anyone, least of all me!

Yes his threads annoy the hell outta me coz they are like a damn rash - everywhere!

Am I suggesting their banning or abolishment? No! Why not - because they serve a greater good and I have respect for his abilities and motivations. Can I think of a better way to manage the problem???

Certainly!

I've suggested same! It seems to work elsewhere for Terry!
In a nutshell here's how I see it!
At somewhere that Terry has "control" over his threads, and can lock delete etc he manages fine when anyone challenges him!

In any forum where he doesn't enjoy those priveleges, and anyone challenges anything he says, he gets upset, deletes stuff and generaly doesn't manage too well in my experience.

So fine - give him that control is my suggested solution, if the greater good of angling is served!

Thats how I see it at least, which is why I suggest the remedy I do of his own forum and mooderator powers!

Heck - if I choose not to go there, at least I'm not tripping over his voluminous diatribe posts everywhere I turn in fishing cycber space!.

IMHO the man's in danger of becomming, in cyber terms, the equivalent to me of the guy who stuffs unwanted advertising material in my letterbox against my wishes!

Lets just give him what he craves - somewhere to alert anglers on issues of concern where he can control all the input!
No skin off my nose, if it's not in my letter box! ;o)

I know thats a poor analogy - but it describes my feelings towards the voluminious posts he is always making about stuff freely available elsewhere on the net!

Lets say - you dislike the propganda Fisheries, constantyly put out so avoid their website because it makes your web surfing more enjoyable!

Should people be able to re post ad infinitum that same propaganda in the places you go, to deliberately AVOID said propaganda?

At least if it is in it's own forum - those who 'might have missed it', know where to look for it, and those deliberately trying to avoid it, can do so (by not going there)!

If I repeatedly posted a particular tackle sales catalogue from a company everyone but me hates and avoids like the plague, repeatedly, with every new product update, "because someone might have missed it" and no one complained and I didn't stop - then eventually people would stop comming if it meant they coulnd't avoid the crapola!

If they go everywhere else on the net to get away from it and it turns up everywhere, pretty soon - you give up the net and go read "womans day" or something!

I personally class Terrys "re-posts of Fisheries propaganda" as crap mostly! If I wanted it I'd go to Fisheries website - but i don't so I avoid the place.

If I wanted to read it - I'd log into Fisheies website. If I don't want to read it, I shouldn't be forced to, at every angling website in the country, because Terry believes we neeed it and it's good for us! Those are decisions I'd like the right to make for myself!
I may not agree with is opinionof what is good for us or what we need to know!

I don't need it and I dont want it, specially not here!

Put it "out of the way" where I don't trip over it everywhere I turn, and if there comes a day I WANT it, I'll go to his forum - (or fisheries website) read what interests me - comment if I feel a need etc etc!

Terrys voluminius posts IMHO only cause other more important subjects to scroll off the page all the sooner and be forgotten because he never stops and posts so much of it!!

It needs to be managed IMHO due to it's volume and its potential to get anglers backs up if they see too much of it and can't avoid it!!!

Give him what he wants - just keep it outta my way, please!

I have enough people telling me what they thinks good for me in the junkmail in my letter box every day!

To see the same thing on every angling website in WA is bloody frustrating to the point it's turning people off issues they mioght otherwise be interested in IMHO!

I'm not suggesting denying him the right to participate and post - it's just that it's such a volume it's becoming annoying and needs to be managed IMHO!

He's a posting phenomenon in his own right!

I believe he does a job no one else wants to do and that he does it very well and that it needs to be done! I'm advocating letting him do it even better!

But I'm damn sick of triipping over it everywhere I turn!

Wheres the fun in walking your dog if every damn step you take is likelely to be on a doggy land mine!
Wheres the fun surfing the fishing internet if every website is covered in junkmail from one man!

Some people may love fishing magazines and fishing brochures and even Fisheries website and their propaganda and even dare I say it Terry's never ending bleating posts about anglers needing to do something or other most urgently!

Me - I'm not one of them, I find them damn annoying, but, I suffer them, However I'm suggesting It would be very nice to have somewhere to go to just talk fishing and boating, thats away from them IMHO!

A "Terry free zone" would be a nice thing IMHO, just as I'm sure Terry probably feels a "trouty / flywest / Wally" free zone would be equally enjoyable!

Terry has the luxury of a few websites that are just that - trouty/flywest free zones!

That is not enough for him - he wants to be able to distribute his junk mail everywhere on every angling website, and I for one, have had moe that a gutfull enough of it!

For Christs sake, manage it - please! I've made enough positive suggestions about HOW to do so IMHO! From what anglers tell me I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way! It's nothing personal against Terry, I like the guy, I admire the job he does, but his message I don't like "in my face" every 5 mins!

I have the option of avoiding things like bible thumpers shoving their message down my throat, in my home and in public even, but theres no escaping Terrys posts anywhere you turn if you want to talk a little fishing or boating on the internet!

All I ask is it's managed please!

Theres room for Tery at every angling site IMHO but not if it's not managed well! If its not managed well IMHO - his efforts risk more harm than good to the cause he purports to represent, through sheer annoyance factor alone!

Thats how I see it, I mean fancy even starting th ethread he has about having something locked or deleted or whatevcer prompted it!
I suggest his "moderators powers elsewhere" are clouding his judgement here, just beause he doesnt have them.

I'm suggesting he is given his own playpen and powers to rule it as he sees fit - but if he steps outside his playpen he becomes 'fair game'. He simply doesn't play well with others and i can't see another solution!!

Then again - you may see differently!

As always - do whats good for Adam, and whats good for Fishwrecked!
Those ought be the overiding principles IMHO!

Cheers!

I love irony :)

That's a classic Scaly.

One to be proud of.... and one the big fella will p!ss himself reading if he is online.

In all seriousness, I enjoy Terry's posts in that they try to keep emotive topics from degenerating into 100 page topics that end up covering the gauntlet of conservation and fisheries management issues, and sometimes it's impossible not to repeat what has been posted adnauseum when discussing the same or similar issues adnauseum.

And the defence pleades guilty as charged! LOL
Hows it go? "Hoisted on me own petard!" he he he!

Cheers!