Thanks Terry for bringing this article to all of our attention. On the face of it it looks like there are a number of action points that are potentially beneficial to commercial / recreational fish stocks explored in this report.
But my question is this (although it may seem stupid)... where to from here...who takes the next step of implementing the recommendations of the report...do they need the weight of public opinion...do I sign a petition...do I vote for a particular political party... how can we as recreational fisherman make a difference (if I can) in this debate??? Is it simply a matter of making a comment?? Or (playing devils advocate here) have all the decision already been made???
Embedded in the detail of the report there are a number of practical recommendations which make a lot of sense. Recommendations such as the allocation of fishing zones to assisit in fisheries management, as well as recommended tonnage catch rates for the metro area which I note are substantially less than the current published capture.
Based upon the $$$$$ I spend on recreational fishing in terms of bait tackle, fuel, books, magazines, boating equipment, charters, holiday accomodation, food, clothing, vehicles........is it not important to protect the recreational fishery, ie those accessable by non-professionals. those within coooeee of the metro and major centre's coastlines????? Are we as recreational fisherman therefore bigger stakeholders than we potentially realise and are given credit for???????? I'm sure if I averaged out my per kilogram cost of fish consumed it would be much higher than the cost of buying the same product from the local fish market.
Its fair to say that you both agree to disagree. I am enjoying reading both sides of the argument as I have little knowledge of the subject. For this discussion to continue without being locked, please keep it civil and based upon the topic at hand as there is no need for personal attacks.
Terry withdrew all his posts, for reasons known only to himself as best I can tell, - which sadly left my comments out there on their own - to perhaps be taken "out of context" by anyone/everyone who showed up after the fact and wasn't privvy to the full and frank exchanges that ensued!
Hardly sporting IMHO - perhaps he lacks the courage of his convictions?.
I too - think it's a shame - but there you have it!. I have always been prepared to stand by my comments, but, in saying that it is ONLY FAIR that they MUST be seen "in context" (i.e. in a complete thread)- otherwise they are open to later mis-interpetation / mis-representation by anyone with such an axe to grind.
Terry should perhaps in future remember, - that any intellectual property posted to a public domain, becomes in effect "public property" and definitely the intellectual property of the web site owner (who can afterall be held legally liable for anything so posted as it's "publisher"!).
It's my opinion, you shouldn't post anything to the public domain your not prepared to stand bye. I'd have preferred my comments to have stood on their own merit for anyone to judge for themselves.
His actions denied me that basic right IMHO.
For that reason alone, I withdrew my posts to protect myself and this site's owner from any liability that might later ensue!
If you have any questions about that topic, you can PM me and I will answer any questions that really apply to the topic. Answers will be on that Western Angler forum.
Flywest should perhaps remember to do his research before making statements like ".. any intellectual property posted to a public domain, becomes ..... definitely the intellectual property of the web site owner..."
He should read the privacy policy of this Fishwrecked site http://fishwrecked.com/node/218 which says "'Data' which is submitted by a user in any form is considered as their intellectual property and copyright laws are to be respected and adhered to...." which clearly says that I own the intellectual property of my own postings. Fishwrecked does NOT claim those intellectually property rights.
As the intellectual property copyright owner, and knowing my rights, I withdrew my posts from Fishwrecked.
I am quite prepared to stand by EVERYTHING I post on any forum, and there was nothing in any of my posts which would raise legal liabilities for anyone. I have all my posts saved and can prove that statement - or I can repost them if I chose.
The whole purpose of the original post was to get people to read and discuss the proposals for the Commercial Wetline Review, which is very important for recreational anglers.
For reasons best known to himself, Flywest seemed determined to hijack that purpose with his 4 posts and dissuade people from commenting on the Wetline Review. As a result, there was no prospect IMO of the post's original purpose being achieved on this forum.
It was the other posts with off topic, personal and irrelevant other points that I was not prepared to be involved with. BTW those were the ones that COULD have raised legal liabilities (IMO).
Adam Gallash is very aware of my concerns, and I am waiting for a phone call from him to discuss even further. He has my phone number, I don't have his. Yes, I know it has been night time and he IS allowed time away from moderating.
Flywest can always post his ideas in separate threads, in fact he has already done so for one of the many points he raised. If he thinks his points are worth posting for informing other people or discussing, then post away.
I am quite prepared to stand by EVERYTHING I post on any forum
Except those posted here apparently, especially when anyone bothers to challenge your point of view IMHO.
Whats the problem Terry - not used to having your opinions posted so frequently all over the net on any site related to fishing - challenged?
My advice - for what it's worth is to NOT make broad & sweeping statements like "no deals have already been done!", when you don't have evidence either way to substantiate such claims.
I am well aware of SOME behind the scenes DEALS, that have ALREADY been DONE, on a whole RANGE of issues, even with IFM for Lobster for example, with various User groups, some of which I might be a member of, and hence privvy to such 'otherwise confidential" information!
Yet here you are extolling people to make submissions because - "it will make a difference" to the outcome????
REALLY?
Then what of the secret deals already done?
Whos going to welch on agreements already reached?
What are the political implications of this? (In terms of "campaign donations") from the various specific interest user groups with whom the deals are already done.
Time for a few little lessons I think Terry - about "The unwritten rules" of the game - that you don't bother to mention to people - when (I believe in good faith) you mislead people into believing - that by "doing the right thing" THEY can make a difference!
Clearly - I'm saying I don't believe they can make much if any difference at all - if "the fix is already in".
This people - is how western democracy works..
Yes - tis a USA link - BUT, the same unritten "rules" are at work here in good ol W.A., whether we like it or not!
I have a belief, that 'people instinctively know' when someone is blowing smoke up their azz!. It's just an intuitive thing, we know, the hairs on the back of the neck start to tingle and we know. OK sometimes we don't care, and are prepared to have said smoke blown you know where.
BUT, sometimes people DO CARE.
Trust me - I CARE - when it coes to fishing - and the people entrusted with making it work (or not as the case may be).
This people, (link below) pretty much describes the "process" at work - with corporations & politicians, in as far as how deals are done - that THWART, the very method Terry is exhorting us to participate in.
Terrys method SHOULD work - in an ideal world.
Sadly - although terry refuses to admity it, we do NOT live in an ideal world. I wish we did. Bitter experience has taught me the hard way that we dont!.
History shows us that in too many cases large corporations have greatly enhanced shareholder profits by buying legislation, or a nice profitable war, from politicians all too eager to sell.
In the early part of the last century Henry Ford wanted to use corporate profits that he viewed as excessive to raise worker salaries and reduce the price of his company's automobiles. His stockholders wanted that money for themselves. The stockholders sued, and the judge ruled that the whole purpose of business is to maximize shareholder wealth, and if Ford "wanted to pursue a (charitable end) he should do it with his own money, not with other people's."(Dodge v. Ford, 1919)
The principle forged into law by Dodge v. Ford continues today to force corporate management to maximize stockholder profits. The law has been modified slightly since 1980 to allow for a slightly more "social" flavor, but the "fiduciary responsibility" of corporate management this principle established remains firmly directed towards maximal profits for the stockholders. CEOs are thus legally required to have a clear and "reasonable expectation of profit" when they spend stockholder money.
The requirement that a "reasonable expectation of profit" be present applies to corporate political campaign contributions just like any other expenditure. Politicians have nothing but their legislation to offer in return for corporate money, and common sense tells us that promoting legislation that would reduce profits --- really isn't the idea behind corporate contributions. Simply stated, this money is bribe money given in the clear expectation of a return on investment. Defining corporate political contributions as bribes, however, makes them subject to legal penalties and legal control. This is the weak link in corporate control of our government. If we can insert a real definition of bribery into our legal system then when a corporation gives money to our politicians it will either be illegally bribing that politician or it will be in illegal violation of its fiduciary responsibilities to its stockholders.
Look - you can read the whole site yourselves - perhaps especially the page on A Nation of Kitty Genovese's Neighbors:-
Quote:
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
The simple facts are, that while WAFIC CEO's pay shareholder money from WAFIC (WA FISHING INDUSTRY COUNCIL) ergo the pro fishermen, to ANY political party, that they are BRIBES - in the purest / simplest form, and that FAVOURS ARE OWED in return for sauch political donations...corporate law demands that this is so.
Politicians are realists - they KNOW that without such donations - their numbers up and their days are limited!
I KNOW for a fcat that such deals are already done - lots of them.
Terry says it isn't so - and to believe him.
You people reading instinctively know - whos the one blowing smoke - and it what you've read is "true or not" IMHO.
I leave it to the people who read, and think for themselves, to decide.
You people choose - be one of the sheep or be the wolf - the choice is up to you!.
The actual words I used in answer to funkybunch's question "Or...have all the decision already been made???" were "The decisions have not ALL been made, not a done deal."
Note particularly the word ALL referring to "ALL decisions" and "not a done deal". Most intelligent people reading all those words together and in the context they were posted would understand them to mean "the WHOLE package has not been decided".
It does NOT say "no deals have already been done" about the Wetline Review, as Flywest misquotes.
It does NOT say NO DEALS have EVER been done on ANYTHING else, as Flywest seems to be accusing me of saying.
So the specific criticisms of what I was alleged to have written don't have any validity AT ALL. And that's why I am quite prepared to stand by EVERYTHING I posted.
I DO know we don't live in a perfect world. But I DON'T take the easy cop out way of saying "you'll NEVER achieve anything by trying so why bother?"
That is because I DO ACTUALLY ACHIEVE SOME THINGS, and that's DESPITE the best/worst efforts of the knockers.
With "friends" like some of those knockers, who needs enemies?? If they spent just a fraction of that time that they spent knocking, and actually trying to work past the imperfections in the world that they trumpet so loudly about, who knows what could be done??
The "opposition" must be rolling in the aisles, laughing their .... off, watching pointless, misleading stuff like posted by some of the knockers.
They probably secretly have their own in house awards for "The recreational angler who most helps their cause without actually knowing." Secret because if it was public then the people concerned and everyone else would wake up to how much damage can be done by knockers.
Flywest can always post his ideas in separate threads. If he thinks his points are worth posting for informing other people or discussing, then he can post away. Why not??? If he doesn't post this "vital" stuff then other people can ask him why not???, if they care.
Than Terry's exhorted public submissions ever will.
Do they occur?
Does it happen? Do WAFIC make political contributions?
quote:
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Agriculture, Forestry and Fishing - Services to Agriculture; Hunting and Trapping $910,695.00
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Oh yes indeed - the corporate Fishing pro's bodies DO make substantial political donations - don't they!
When you people all scratch ya head and wonder how in the heck - a Fisheries minister could ever support netting of bream, after all the submissions and negative publicity we generated during the campaign against netting which we lost - THERE in black and white is WHY we lost!
The almighty $
The pro's just BOUGHT themsleves an outcome - by political donations.
Bling Bling Bling - a light goes on!
Yes - thats essentially a corrupt practice.......because - politicians are not SUPPOSED to accept bribes, but political donations are NOT considered a bribe...
Yet - under corporations law - no Corporation can MAKE a political donation for the good of the common cause they MUST by LAW make all payments with a realistic expectation of generating a profit for their shareholders!
i.e, ANY political donation made by a corporation, MUST by defenition be a bribe, since the corporation cannot spend ANY shareholder $ unless it is expected to make a profit for the shareholder!!!
So - how do WAFIC support the labor party - under corporate law unless it is a BRIBE???
Wakey wakey people, hand off snakey - tis time to sit up and realise - that ol trouty, has go the answer to WHY, we can't win the netting issue!
Corrupt practices are operating against you - a deal has already been done!
And people are silly enough to believe the tripe, that well meaning people like Terry F put out, suggesting no deals have been done, and that we can make a difference to the outcome - by participating in public consultation processes.
The fact is, we cannot!
All we do by participating in such nonsense - is help to legitimise, for the corrupt politicians - a corrupted process where the outcome is already pre-determined, and a deal has already been done - in return for substantial political donations!
What? Your shocked by my revelations?
Trouty could be right?
Terry F could be WRONG?
Wake up people, the fix is in! The deals done...
Dissenting opinions - you see to me, I believe I've proved - that deals have been done - from bedroom deals, to donations deals, specific user group deals, and everything in between!.
Now - you can do like Terry says and make submissions heavens knows I've made hundreds of them - only to eventually realise that $1M in donations butys an awfull lot of favours...from politicians - the same ones who USE the number of public submissions they totally ignore - to "justify their corrupt actions" by quoting they "consulted widely with industry and effected user groups".
The REAL truth is - that, the process is fundamentally flawed in that it is corrupted.
Do we honestly wish to be a part of that?
I don't know what one has to do to make people wake up - to the 'unwritten rules of the game'...i.e the $ kickbacks to pollies.
I really do like Terry F - beavering away in the background - trying to make a difference in a world where corruption is going to beat him every time...but he never gives up and he's dedicated and committed, (and works hundreds and hiundreds of unpaid hours).
You know what - they (the corrupt politicians who are using him) will, "reward" him with honours, maybe a medal - or even an Australia day honour maybe - heck knows he deserves it, for he is a true believer...in a system of democracy that in an ideal world WOULD work.
Sadly - we don't live in an ideal world, and while the Terrys of this world are beavering away - their efforts are being used by corrupt corporations and politicians - to "whitewash" their nefarious activities, and behind closed doors kickback deals.
They will do exactly as they please - they will publish a report saying they consulted widely with industry and all affected partys - and thoise who follow Terrys exhortations to make written submissions will validate the fact, that they did indeed consult widely!
BUT - will they take one blind bit of notice of whats written?
or
Will they do just as they have agreed with those who donated almost a $million to their re-election campaign.
Terry would like to have people believe, that I am doing anglers a disservice by suggesting they are wasting their time - making written submissions to Fisheries et all (CALM etc etc) on any of the issues facing us as recreational anglers.
Perhapshe's right and I am, but then again - perhaps I'm right (as i believe after my experience with all the detailed submissions I've made at various times)....and they don't make one ounce of difference and all they do is help justify a corrupted process!
We as anglers need to decide whether we want to continue being part of the problem or begin to be part of the answer.
The Answer - is to not keep allowing politicians to claim they have broad support for their decisions because they have consultyed widely.
If no one makes any comment - then they have to admit either:-
Everyone is totally apathetic, and so they have a mandate from the people to do as they please:
or
The public havve lost ALL FAITH in them, and as a reslt wont validate their corrupted public consultation process by participating.
They will find out either way at the ballot box - for that is our only last line of selfe defence!
Least, thats my view after years of beavering away trying to make a difference and not understanding why nothings ever achieved!.
Now I KNOW.
$1M will buy you a lot of loyalty from a politician!
it WAS a very interesting and informative post...what happened...the posts disappeared...now they're back and we're bored to death.
Can we get back to fishing.....
Geez Flywest not sure how old ya are cobber but if ya older then 36, I am giving up fisheries management sh&t hey.
Your scaring me with this conspiracy theories bro.I, can handle what the Yanks are doing in new age mags, but back door deals to piss guys like you off is more then a conspiracy theory
Personally I think, attacking Terry is way below the belt.Its a post to inform the minority on what is happening,Don't shot the messenger people can make their own minds up.
Great if you feel different, start a new thread on why you shouldnt make a submission
No malice at all Flywest I just don't like ya taking the piss out of a bloke who gives up heaps of his time for others, and I thank him for that
Wally Parkin
Ps I thought it was Feltcha burg who called Fat chance a fatty, thats why the Blackwood didn't get the no netting approval.Then again, that in its self is some kind of payback conspiracy,Or tackle shop gosip
Some of em are decent, down to earth blokes, with their life investement in their boat & license and they battle to make ends meet.
They fish hard and long - often in crappy seas and weather, in short, a job you wouldn't wish on ya worst enemy - but fair play to em - they love it & it's their life!
For the industry to survive - they must protect the resource.
Probably some sorta quota system might work IF (and it's a big if) the TRUE sustained yeild capacity of the resource is properly established. (I have some reservations about Fisheries WA's scientists ability to get this right, based on some of their past assessement methods, eg pink snapper in shark bay...ask Geoff Wilson Knots and Snapper books guru, what I'm on about...one of our pet subjects) - BUT having said that, - I've worked with a few of their researchers and they are a good bunch a blokes, always learning / refining their methodologies in line with new research methods around the world and incorporating new technologys(like DNA sampling etc etc)
So..(in a nutshell)
Get the research right - quatify the resource, establish a REALISTIC "sustained yeild" capacity, and allocate a quota.
Sadly Pro fishers here hate quota's - theres an entrenched perception, right or wrong, that the better fishermen are 'penalised' if a quotas introduced...aainst the lazy, less intelligent or less well equipped, competitor fisherman.
Most pro's would prefer the current management strategy of tweaking CFE ratios (Catch for effort) i.e. reducing pots, days off over the full moon, shorter season etc etc, so they can still outfish their neighbor..
Thats proven to be a tough way to manage the resource..
But it is human nature to be competitive.
The pro's who SHOULDN'T be wetlining IMHO are the Rock Lobster license holders, who have traditionally held a wetline license from the days when they used to catch their own bait...(now they import 20,000 tonnes of frozen north sea herring annually for bait...but thats a different subject altogether - can anyone say pilchard mass mortalitys)
These guys who used to catch their own bait, now use droplines, to catch high value slow growing demersals (OK Dhui's) at the beginning and end of each line of cray pots.
It gets sold to pubs in towns up n down the coast at relatively cheap prices (compared to what it might bring in say a high class restuarant where we buy nile perch under fish substiution rackets at Dhufish prices), and what for? - yep to pay their months fuel bill!
If anyone KNEW anything about the rock lobster industry - these guys all make a half to $1 Million (or more) a year every year, (theres 600 of em and they export $600,000,000 worth a year and some of em own 3 or more licenses!).
Lets not mention they pay us the owner of the resource - not a cent in resource rents (royalties). Any other natural resource sector does - miners pay royalties - loggers pay royalties - cray fisherman pay NOTHING to us the public. What they do pay, is a "cost recovery license fee", i.e. they pay Fisheries dept what it costs to administer the cray industry!
We the public whos resourse they rape n pillage, get diddly squat!
Did I mention we will have to buy some of that resource back under current IFM proposals? (Integrated Fisheries Management).
So - millionaires, get access to our resource for nada - and all make a $Million a year each - and yet, they are so poor - they have to set drop lines for Dhui's to help pay their fuel bill????????
Someones havin a lend of us!
It shouldn't be happening, these people don't have a valid claim to a resource so highly valued by the public...when in reality - you can't catch a dhui - because they needed em all to pay their fuel bills!
You can't confuse these Cray boys - with the real wetliners - they are two different classes of fishermen.
You only have to look at their boats....cray boys in $Million+ new boats every 5 years and wetliners in old garbage scows a indo refugee would turn his nose up at!
Yes - wetline needs a LOT of changes, before it will ever be anything worhtwhile and before rec anglers will get a fair shake.
Spatial separation.
Spatial separation
There I said it twice. (To emphasis it!)
In my opinion - there should be spatial separation between pro and rec - no pro's fishing within 3 nautical mile of land.
Why?
Well lotsa reasons - the Dead Kid In Busselton run down by a cray boat for starters... (don't get me started on that one). But there are other reasons as well - rec fishers don't have the access opportunity (i.e restricted days, they work for a living, + limited range, due to smaller size / range on rec boats and so on and so forth...restricted to distance from appalling rec launch facilities etc etc etc).
So - how we doing so far?
Theres a few for starters.
In answer to Wally - coz I know his hearts in the right place, just like Terry.
Mate - if you'd seen the deleted posts from early on in this thread, you'd a seen that I know and like Terry a LOT - he's been and stayed at my place, and I consider him a first rate & top bloke.
That said - these places are where we put ideas forward and have to be prepared to discuss, debate and at times defend them!.
Tis nothing at all personal against Terry - and I'm reasonably sure, deep down, he knows that!
But- I told him at the outset (now deleted) that we would just have to agree to disagree on this one issue, as men should be able to do, without it being taken personally!.
You would likely have missed all that - due to Terry withdrawing his posts for his own reasons and as a result - me doing likewise.
I maintain the position - that to participate...in a system that is fundamentally flawed and corrupt is not good for rec fishing IMHO.
I say that because my life experience has taught me that.
I well remember this particular Govt (the Labor Party of WA).
Love em or hate em, they are to me known to be corrupt. So much so that as a whistle blower - I forwent an exemplary 18 year Public service career to testify in the supreme court against ex deputy premier David (brown paper bag) Parker, and two CALM colleagues during the WA inc era - sending the two corrupt fellow officers to jail!.
I learned the hard way how this govt works, I used to work for them on the inside where the secret deals were done, I used to write their propaganda (spin doctoring). Ok the faces out front keep changing just like a revolving door - but the party hacks, numbers men and union thugs, running the party are still the SAME crooks running the party, when I took em on all those years ago!.
Now - I was once a true believer like Terry, and they USED me too - just like they are using him now IMHO.
Terry truly belives in his cause, and sadly, in my experience, they LOVE to use such idealistic people for their own ends. They will massage anyones ego, in order to achieve their nefarious ends....like I said he will likely get a medal (Heck I once nominated him myself for an award to Fisheries WA, in recognition of his sterling efforts!)
I'm trying pretty hard to point out to Rec Anglers, WHY no one in politics or Fisheries Dept, gives a round rats touche about our concerns...for the future of our fishstocks.
In a perfect world they would - and in a perfect world, what Terry is suggesting would be the very, very, best thing to do and I would be right in their alongside him with shoulder to the wheel urging you all to do likewise.
Heck - in the past I've done just that - national email campaigns to stop netting and so on and so forth - marlin steaks bouycott of Woolworth and Coles supermarkets, heck Wally I been in there fighting the good fight - Just like Terry is now!.
The only difference I guess - is I KNOW from very hard won experience (try losing your job at 30ish with 3 kids a wife & a mortgage because you did the right thing and blew the whistle on crooks!), that when these crooks are in powoer - all the usual rules of conduct go out the window!.
Have we all forgotten the WA inc era?
Have we all forgotten that Gallop and Judy Edwards BOTH quit only a couple weeks ago?
Did ANYONE here swallow that bulldust about depression?
When will we really find out what happened?
Will it be when the CCC gets to the bottom of the Investigation into one of the CCC ladies who tipped off the parliamentary secretary who was embezzeling govt funds to support his drug habit? Were they both somehow comlicit in that? - will it all come out in 12 months time at the trial? - did they quit to avoid emabarrassing the party? Who knows?
What we SHOULD know - is that the whole lot of em are crooks - so bent they couldn't lay straight in bed at night, because it's a pre- requisite for their job!
I know these things, I learned 'em the hard way at great personal cost!
Sometimes - when the regime is corrupt / crooked - then it's better not to be involved and I am suggesting in my own inimitable way - that this is one of those times!.
You know a LOT of good people got suckered in by Hitler in Germany and believed everything he said, and look where that led!
A LOT of them wished they'd never got involved!.
I'm trying to suggest to people that this is ONE of those times...when it might later prove to have been better NOT to have been involved, lest history judge you harshly (like it did ALL the German people of WW2 era! as an example!).
Wally - I'm well over 36 mate - 10 years past that...47 this year.
Sometimes "experience" is something that the young guys who frequent this site & fish so hard, CAN'T learn at school - heck some of em were likely in single digit years when the WA Inc era happened!
If those with the life experience - dont stand up and point out the error of some things that might otherwise, on the surface, appear to be quite reasonable, - then they MSUT be doomed to repeat the same mistakes all over again!
Wheres the benefit in that?. You can't put an old head on young shoulders, but you can sure as heck try to wise em up just a LITTLE bit, by relating a bit of experience - showing em how to think independently.
One thing I'm certain of Wally, is that the future of our resource, rests with these fine young people!.
If they can't think and act independantly, then what chance does our fishery resource have? (against the aforementioned crooks?)
These young people have time on their side to bring about the changes necessary, to effect change in how things are run (i.e. generational change) - if they can see the obvious faults in the system we have now, because someone takes the time and trouble to point it out to them, and teaches em to think independantly for themselves, then just maybe they can bring about the changes, we have NOT been able to in our lifetimes, despite our best efforts!.
Thats my motivation!.
I would sugest that both mine and Terrys motivations, both have the SAME high moral ground, in that we both passionaltely believe in what we are doing / saying.
This is why I said at the very outset to Terry, that we would have to agree to disagree on this one subject!
Does that mean I'm taking the "P" outta Terry? Not one bit! I admire the man for habving the courage of his convictions - right or wrong in my opinion.
You know the Yanks have a saying for this...
Quote:
I might not agree with what he is saying - but I would fight to the death to defend his right to say it!
One thing that interests myself and some others I have spoken to on this issue and was alluded to by Flywest is the issue of the wetline license that is basically part of every cray license. I haven`t heard of the droplines in the lines of pots but have heard many stories of very large quantities of Dhufish and Baldchin being taken by deckies and/or skippers at the start and end of the season by both droplines and other methods. Just in case they haven`t made enough money !!!!!!! I am aware that something was done in regard to Baldchin at the Abrolhos to counter this practice but as usual no-one had the cojone`s to do it properly so a window of opportunity was left open which has probably made the rape and pillage by these well heeled overgunned fish destroyers even worse.
I used to be in horticulture and would still be if someone else grew all the crops for us and all we had to do was buy a harvester!!!!!!
Anyway I digress, the main issue that I wanted to raise is the issue of sustainability, as most of you would be aware the Western Rock Lobster fishery is one of the few fisheries and I think the only Rock Lobster fishery to have received approval from the ``Marine Stewardship Council`` or MSC to use their sustainability logo (tick) .I presume that means that the WRL fishery has been investigated and found to be a sustainable well managed fishery by the MSC or according to their criteria. If this is the case I wonder whether the investigation looked at other fisheries that are adversely affected by these same WRL fisherman such as longlived demersal species like the aforementioned Dhufish and whether the WRL fishermens effect on these species is sustainable.
The issues are of course that these guys would not be out there if it wasn`t for the WRL (they are not wetliners as there is not enough money in that for these boys), they wouldn`t know where to find these fish if not for the WRL, etc. etc.
So in a nutshell the sustainability and profitability of the WRL fishery is contributing to the demise of other valuable local fisheries. I can only presume that the MRC did a full analysis of the sustainability of the North Sea Herring fishery if that is the major bait source for the WRL fishery, if not that may be a case of the sustainable WRL fishery adversely affecting valuable non-local fisheries as well.
So taking all that in to account I wonder how valuable the MSC seal of approval is to the WRL fisheries marketing effort and if by bringing all of the above to the MRCs attention could the WRL fishery possibly lose their accreditation.
Therefore the final scenario is WRL boys, what is more valuable to the industry the MSC accreditation or your wetline license? No boys you can no longer have them both !!!!!!!! and if they were serious about sustainability we know which way you would jump. Or perhaps you would like to keep your wetline license as a true license and hand back your crayfish one?????????
Anyway just some thoughts to consider and I am sure all of you guys out there may have some opinions and information you would like to add to the above so I look forward to seeing what we can come up with.
Judging by what happened down south it appears that the surfing fraternity has a far stronger voice in government (fisheries) circles than the recreational fishing industry has ever had so lets try and rectify that for a start.
One other thing worth mentioning here is that if the MSC were approached independently (Recfishwest perhaps)we may be able to exert pressure on the WRL boys from outside government circles so that their bag of $$$$$ doesn`t enter the equation.
Keep your hooks bent
Walky
PS : I suppose its a bit like the guy with two girlfriends one named Edith and one named Kate.
The moral of the story being you can`t have your Kate and Edith too.
We reward environmentally responsible fisheries management and practices with our distinctive blue product label . If you are concerned about overfishing and its environmental and social consequences you will increasingly be able to choose seafood products which have been independently assessed against our environmental standard and labelled to prove it. Our label will assure you that the product comes from a well managed fishery and has not contributed to the environmental problem of overfishing.
We have three offices around the world and work in partnership with all those who have an interest in securing a sustainable future.
The last sentence in the second paragraph may be just the ticket , one would hope that the onus is on the WRL to prove their slaughter of demersal species is sustainable rather than a requirement on someone else to prove otherwise.
Walky
Your right Walky about the crayfish industry having a MSC award which isnt bad considering only a handfull are given out. However what very few people know is that recently the industry was under fire and in danger of loosing the award mainly because they got the award then rested on their lorels. I am pretty sure that is part of the reason for the big shake up of the industry of late.
Have to agree with other people here in that I dont think you should be able to own and fish with two different licences in a season. As far as I see it, fair enough if you want to buy and own two licenses but you should only be able to fish with one per year or at any one time. Being able to drop pots and then at the end of the day pull in wetlines is an absolute joke if you ask me.
Im not saying that they should give up their livleyhood, good luck to them I wish I was could afford one, but I still think the licences should be seperate and they should fish for one or the other thats all.
In reply to the illegal activities of people, well all people are responsible rec and pro and they should be all dealt with harsher if you ask me to make sure it doesnt happen. I have seen the recs taking over their limits, pulling other peoples pots etc but they still do it. I also know of pros who do it to the extent of cutting the pleopods off breeding females or over potting. So the fines obviously arent working to well at present as people still feel the need to do the wrong thing.
What it comes down to is the need for the government and fisheries to change a few things and make it better and fairer for all
I think that 30 years ago no-one really worried too much about anything environmental ,for a start the majority of our resources both fishing and other were certainly not in the parlous state that they are now.
You mention the devastation done by mining -- well as I understand it they are required to rehabilitate the land once mining is finished and they also pay substantial royalties to the government as well as providing significant employment opportunities . Mining is the major driver of this states economy is it not?.I think without the money flowing into the economy from mining and related industries the majority of tackle shops in WA would go broke!
With regard to farming the majority of the damage you speak of was done back when people knew no better and if you were to check your facts you would find that the government of the day actively encouraged the clearing of marginal land which of course is wear the majority of the damage is. These days the majority of farmers are far better ``stewards of the land`` as they understand the damage that has been done by past generations and they can see that there is no point in overusing land now only to have it so degraded in a few years time that it has no use whatsoever.They need to manage the resource under their control to ensure that farming is a viable option for future generations.
Many commercial fishing practices from days gone by have now also been outlawed or put under various controls -- are you naive enough to think that bottom trawling for demersal species does not damage delicate bottom structure beyond repair as well as indiscriminately taking fish of all sizes (no size limit for pros you just have to look in any fish shop baby snapper ?? baby baldchin etc)-- what about the good old trap boats eh what do you think happens to delicate coral reefs when great heavy steel cages are dropped on them from above. Is this not environmental destruction ?? oh but its underwater so its not visible so we don`t talk about it .I could go on longlining , driftnetting but where would I stop.
Where are the royalties and the major contribution to the economy from these practices .Small industries but large destructive influences .
As for illegal rec fishing practices at least those that are caught are proscuted to the full extent of the law -- this is why we have laws.
Anyway I would appreciate being enlightened if any of the above is incorrect.
Walky
Just a short addition to Walkys post about crayfishermen taking Dhufush and Baldchin (Bluebone call em what you will), on setlines, while cray fishing.
They actually get a reasonably decent feed each day (skipper and deckhands) from decent fish that enter the cray pots themselves! (and can't get out before the pots winched aboard!).
This is in addition - to those they can and do catch on set lines used at the start end of each line of pots on occasions!.
Now - lets tale a look at the bycatch issue here - and the anomalous differences between Pros rules and the rules for rec fishers.
You know - if for example you are a rec fisherman dragging a prawn net at night for a feed of prawns - that - you must let go all the blue manna crabs you catch! Similarly - if you recreational net in say the peel estuary on a wedneday night - you must release alive and gently any blue mannas tangled in the set net - (and any cobbler barramundie and a few others)...not that you'd get a barra in the Peel, but I digress!
So - why can pros keep demersal fish that get caught in their lobster pots? (Bycatch...and the same question could apply to all the octopus!)
OK - they MAY have a wetline license - but bycatch from a lobster pot is hardly "wet lining" is it????
Shouldn't all those deckies and skippers free lunches,(and occy bait) go straight back over the side alive & unmolested??????
So - where is "Bycatch" and "equity of treatement" of (pros versus recs) in the legislation, mentioned in any of the review submissions?
Why are recreational fishermen - effectively second class citizens in the way the Fisheries rules are enforced by Fisheries WA dept in comparison to the pro's in bycatch retention issues??
Why do we have to throw things back while pros get to fillet and grill em????
Could it be because Pro's make LAARGE $ political contributions?????(Thru WAFIC?)
Good question - no?
You'll find I'm CHOKKA BLOCK FULL of "good questions" that LOTS of people (with a vested $ interest) would prefer weren' asked!!!
But you dont have to worry - because I KNOW (from hard won experience - that NONE of these issues wuill ever make it past the public submissiosn review process - that is after all - what all the LARGE $ POLITICAL DONMATIONS are paid for - to ensure the pro's get their way (and screw the rec fisher in the bargain!).
Course Terry sings a totally different tune...
Maybe theres middle ground - but I sincerely doubt it.
Food for thought - no?
(And when you see me consistently "banned / locked / deleted / edited" from threads at various fising websites around the internet - you know the political "bribe" er "donations" money's being put to good use!). wink!
Cheers!
Gully I think mentioned the MSC award. (Environmental sustainablility issue).
Years ago - when I used to sell venison to resturants from our deer farm, we were offered the right to use the national heart foundations Red Heart with a Tick symbol on our product!
Venison is a good product, low in choleterols and bad fats etc (less than 1% fat over the entire carcass and high in iron etc etc)...BUT - you know what?
There was NO TESTING of our meat required - all we had to do - to be able to legally use the RED HEART FOUNDATION TICK on our product and promotional literature????
Yep! You guessed it - pay em a HUGE annual fee for their trademark!!!!! (Talk about a scam!...heck Fish n Chips & Macca's could BUY a red tick if they wanted!). :Rollseyes:
My sugesstion to you all - is that the much vaunted MSC sustainability award the WRL boys spruke so much about...is just the same - send a cheque and I wager I could probably get it for just about any product you want to name!
What I'm saying is - tis all a marketing ploy and means nuthing in the real world..
How can I justify that comment?
Well - think about it (here we go again...think independantly - let your OWN brain consider the truth rather than swallowing what propaganda you are spoon fed by politicians and Fisheries WA Dept....starting to sound familiar - no???)
The IFM (Integrated Fisheries Management Process) is considering the allocations of WRL resource between Rec & Pro at the moment...(Another public submissions process - don't get me started!)
And - what have we just seen in the changes for this sseasons WRL season?
Yep - reduced CFE ratios (Catch for effort) i.e days off over the full moon reduced pot numbers increased sizes, etc, etc, etc, - all designed to reduuce the overall catch..
Why?
Because the resource is under threat is why!
Fisheries research Purelus (sp?) counts by Fisheries researchers show the recruitment of juveniles for 4 years time hence, are way way down on forecasts - somethings WRONG!...so we need to URGENTLY reduce total catch effort.
Soo - again color me dumb... but this is what happens to a resource fished within sustained yeild limits???????????
This is what happens to a resource with the Marine Stewardship Council tick????
Dunno bout you people - but to me the Marine Stewardship Council are probably the same scammers who came up with the Heart Foundation Tick of approval! (Same dog - different leg!).
The really SAD thing is that again - the rec fisher will have to bail it out with our $.
Licenses may go up to something like $170 a year if Frank Prokops recent press release from Recfishwest is to be believed..
My own calculations under the proposed current new IFM resource sharing rules for WRL in 10 years time - are that bag limits for that $170 a year license will end up being 1 sized cray every second day, for rec anglers unless we BUY BACK some of the resource allocatiuon from the pros...due to growth in recreational fishing numbers against a fixed meagre % of the resource being offered us under IFM management paper, released for public comment.
I did tell you a $1Million buys a LOT of loyalty from a politician, didn't I? wink!
Yes - we will be buying back our own resource from pro's who don't own it and pay NO ROYALTIES / RESOURCE RENT to us the public who own the resource, for access to that publicly owned resource! We will in effect be PAYING THE PROS to stayhome and NOT FISH, for FISH THEY DON"T OWN!
Hello people - your being screwed in case it hasn't dawned on you yet!
$1 Million in political donations - sure goes a long way with politicians, don't it?
Gotta get me a job where I'm paid to stay home and not catch something, I don't own anyway! :Rollseyes:
Yup yup yup -
The fix is NOT IN! :Rollseyes:
Deals have NOT all been DONE :Rollseyes:
Freakin' heck, am I the only one with even half a brain LEFT who can see how we are being screwed over??
And yet I get blocked / deleted/ edited/ banned / from Fishing websites the nation over???????????
Yeah, I wonder why?.........can anyone say $1M worth of good reasons!
Sometimes these things don't / copy paste too well from one forum to another - something to do with the html script they use if it's different I suspect.
Hands like a square mouth shovel - I'm gonna invent me a phat phingers keyboard for Aussie blokes - and make a $gazzilion like Bill Gates!
Every key shaped & size like a stubby cap! he he he..
No letters on keys just beer description..
XXXX
VB
etc
That way we get less keys... ;o)
Hey - you know wy Queenslanders put XXXX on their cans & stubbies?
Can't spell b e e r! he he he!
funkybunch
Posts: 97
Date Joined: 25/07/05
2 cents worth
Adam Gallash
Posts: 15610
Date Joined: 29/11/05
Agree to disagree
Its fair to say that you both agree to disagree. I am enjoying reading both sides of the argument as I have little knowledge of the subject. For this discussion to continue without being locked, please keep it civil and based upon the topic at hand as there is no need for personal attacks.
Cheers,
Adam
Site Admin - Just ask if you need assistance
WallyOld
Posts: 22
Date Joined: 22/11/05
Gee what happened too all
Gee what happened too all the posts on this thread.
Cant comment unless I/we read the whole shootn match
Wally
looking4mulloway
Posts: 101
Date Joined: 17/08/05
looks to me like this post
looks to me like this post has been mutaly withdrawn however i did find somethings said early informative. Pitty it was deleted
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
Actually
Terry withdrew all his posts, for reasons known only to himself as best I can tell, - which sadly left my comments out there on their own - to perhaps be taken "out of context" by anyone/everyone who showed up after the fact and wasn't privvy to the full and frank exchanges that ensued!
Hardly sporting IMHO - perhaps he lacks the courage of his convictions?.
I too - think it's a shame - but there you have it!. I have always been prepared to stand by my comments, but, in saying that it is ONLY FAIR that they MUST be seen "in context" (i.e. in a complete thread)- otherwise they are open to later mis-interpetation / mis-representation by anyone with such an axe to grind.
Terry should perhaps in future remember, - that any intellectual property posted to a public domain, becomes in effect "public property" and definitely the intellectual property of the web site owner (who can afterall be held legally liable for anything so posted as it's "publisher"!).
It's my opinion, you shouldn't post anything to the public domain your not prepared to stand bye. I'd have preferred my comments to have stood on their own merit for anyone to judge for themselves.
His actions denied me that basic right IMHO.
For that reason alone, I withdrew my posts to protect myself and this site's owner from any liability that might later ensue!
Cheers!
bruiser
Posts: 148
Date Joined: 09/08/05
too bad
too bad this post disappeared..a shame..it was really interesting and informative
TerryF
Posts: 489
Date Joined: 11/08/05
Posts about Commercial Wetline Review
Anyone who wants to know the full details of the original post about the Revised Commercial Wetline Review can find it at http://www.westernangler.com.au/forum/tm.asp?m=90209&mpage=1&key=𖁡
If you have any questions about that topic, you can PM me and I will answer any questions that really apply to the topic. Answers will be on that Western Angler forum.
Flywest should perhaps remember to do his research before making statements like ".. any intellectual property posted to a public domain, becomes ..... definitely the intellectual property of the web site owner..."
He should read the privacy policy of this Fishwrecked site http://fishwrecked.com/node/218 which says "'Data' which is submitted by a user in any form is considered as their intellectual property and copyright laws are to be respected and adhered to...." which clearly says that I own the intellectual property of my own postings. Fishwrecked does NOT claim those intellectually property rights.
As the intellectual property copyright owner, and knowing my rights, I withdrew my posts from Fishwrecked.
I am quite prepared to stand by EVERYTHING I post on any forum, and there was nothing in any of my posts which would raise legal liabilities for anyone. I have all my posts saved and can prove that statement - or I can repost them if I chose.
The whole purpose of the original post was to get people to read and discuss the proposals for the Commercial Wetline Review, which is very important for recreational anglers.
For reasons best known to himself, Flywest seemed determined to hijack that purpose with his 4 posts and dissuade people from commenting on the Wetline Review. As a result, there was no prospect IMO of the post's original purpose being achieved on this forum.
It was the other posts with off topic, personal and irrelevant other points that I was not prepared to be involved with. BTW those were the ones that COULD have raised legal liabilities (IMO).
Adam Gallash is very aware of my concerns, and I am waiting for a phone call from him to discuss even further. He has my phone number, I don't have his. Yes, I know it has been night time and he IS allowed time away from moderating.
Flywest can always post his ideas in separate threads, in fact he has already done so for one of the many points he raised. If he thinks his points are worth posting for informing other people or discussing, then post away.
TerryF
=====
Beavering away in the background......
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
Really?
Except those posted here apparently, especially when anyone bothers to challenge your point of view IMHO.
Whats the problem Terry - not used to having your opinions posted so frequently all over the net on any site related to fishing - challenged?
My advice - for what it's worth is to NOT make broad & sweeping statements like "no deals have already been done!", when you don't have evidence either way to substantiate such claims.
I am well aware of SOME behind the scenes DEALS, that have ALREADY been DONE, on a whole RANGE of issues, even with IFM for Lobster for example, with various User groups, some of which I might be a member of, and hence privvy to such 'otherwise confidential" information!
Yet here you are extolling people to make submissions because - "it will make a difference" to the outcome????
REALLY?
Then what of the secret deals already done?
Whos going to welch on agreements already reached?
What are the political implications of this? (In terms of "campaign donations") from the various specific interest user groups with whom the deals are already done.
Time for a few little lessons I think Terry - about "The unwritten rules" of the game - that you don't bother to mention to people - when (I believe in good faith) you mislead people into believing - that by "doing the right thing" THEY can make a difference!
Clearly - I'm saying I don't believe they can make much if any difference at all - if "the fix is already in".
This people - is how western democracy works..
Yes - tis a USA link - BUT, the same unritten "rules" are at work here in good ol W.A., whether we like it or not!
I have a belief, that 'people instinctively know' when someone is blowing smoke up their azz!. It's just an intuitive thing, we know, the hairs on the back of the neck start to tingle and we know. OK sometimes we don't care, and are prepared to have said smoke blown you know where.
BUT, sometimes people DO CARE.
Trust me - I CARE - when it coes to fishing - and the people entrusted with making it work (or not as the case may be).
This people, (link below) pretty much describes the "process" at work - with corporations & politicians, in as far as how deals are done - that THWART, the very method Terry is exhorting us to participate in.
Terrys method SHOULD work - in an ideal world.
Sadly - although terry refuses to admity it, we do NOT live in an ideal world. I wish we did. Bitter experience has taught me the hard way that we dont!.
http://breakthelink.org/
In the early part of the last century Henry Ford wanted to use corporate profits that he viewed as excessive to raise worker salaries and reduce the price of his company's automobiles. His stockholders wanted that money for themselves. The stockholders sued, and the judge ruled that the whole purpose of business is to maximize shareholder wealth, and if Ford "wanted to pursue a (charitable end) he should do it with his own money, not with other people's."(Dodge v. Ford, 1919)
The principle forged into law by Dodge v. Ford continues today to force corporate management to maximize stockholder profits. The law has been modified slightly since 1980 to allow for a slightly more "social" flavor, but the "fiduciary responsibility" of corporate management this principle established remains firmly directed towards maximal profits for the stockholders. CEOs are thus legally required to have a clear and "reasonable expectation of profit" when they spend stockholder money.
The requirement that a "reasonable expectation of profit" be present applies to corporate political campaign contributions just like any other expenditure. Politicians have nothing but their legislation to offer in return for corporate money, and common sense tells us that promoting legislation that would reduce profits --- really isn't the idea behind corporate contributions. Simply stated, this money is bribe money given in the clear expectation of a return on investment. Defining corporate political contributions as bribes, however, makes them subject to legal penalties and legal control. This is the weak link in corporate control of our government. If we can insert a real definition of bribery into our legal system then when a corporation gives money to our politicians it will either be illegally bribing that politician or it will be in illegal violation of its fiduciary responsibilities to its stockholders.
Look - you can read the whole site yourselves - perhaps especially the page on A Nation of Kitty Genovese's Neighbors:-
The simple facts are, that while WAFIC CEO's pay shareholder money from WAFIC (WA FISHING INDUSTRY COUNCIL) ergo the pro fishermen, to ANY political party, that they are BRIBES - in the purest / simplest form, and that FAVOURS ARE OWED in return for sauch political donations...corporate law demands that this is so.
Politicians are realists - they KNOW that without such donations - their numbers up and their days are limited!
I KNOW for a fcat that such deals are already done - lots of them.
Terry says it isn't so - and to believe him.
You people reading instinctively know - whos the one blowing smoke - and it what you've read is "true or not" IMHO.
I leave it to the people who read, and think for themselves, to decide.
You people choose - be one of the sheep or be the wolf - the choice is up to you!.
Knowledge is power - as they say!
Cheers!
TerryF
Posts: 489
Date Joined: 11/08/05
Commercial Wetline Review
I chose my words carefully.
The actual words I used in answer to funkybunch's question "Or...have all the decision already been made???" were "The decisions have not ALL been made, not a done deal."
Note particularly the word ALL referring to "ALL decisions" and "not a done deal". Most intelligent people reading all those words together and in the context they were posted would understand them to mean "the WHOLE package has not been decided".
It does NOT say "no deals have already been done" about the Wetline Review, as Flywest misquotes.
It does NOT say NO DEALS have EVER been done on ANYTHING else, as Flywest seems to be accusing me of saying.
So the specific criticisms of what I was alleged to have written don't have any validity AT ALL. And that's why I am quite prepared to stand by EVERYTHING I posted.
I DO know we don't live in a perfect world. But I DON'T take the easy cop out way of saying "you'll NEVER achieve anything by trying so why bother?"
That is because I DO ACTUALLY ACHIEVE SOME THINGS, and that's DESPITE the best/worst efforts of the knockers.
With "friends" like some of those knockers, who needs enemies?? If they spent just a fraction of that time that they spent knocking, and actually trying to work past the imperfections in the world that they trumpet so loudly about, who knows what could be done??
The "opposition" must be rolling in the aisles, laughing their .... off, watching pointless, misleading stuff like posted by some of the knockers.
They probably secretly have their own in house awards for "The recreational angler who most helps their cause without actually knowing." Secret because if it was public then the people concerned and everyone else would wake up to how much damage can be done by knockers.
Flywest can always post his ideas in separate threads. If he thinks his points are worth posting for informing other people or discussing, then he can post away. Why not??? If he doesn't post this "vital" stuff then other people can ask him why not???, if they care.
Still waiting for a phone call from Adam.
TerryF
=====
Beavering away in the background......
Adam Gallash
Posts: 15610
Date Joined: 29/11/05
Response
Sorry, I have been extremely busy with other fishwrecked matters. I will make that call soon and address a few of these issues.
Adam
Site Admin - Just ask if you need assistance
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
I've suggested that political donations have a LOT more impact
Than Terry's exhorted public submissions ever will.
Do they occur?
Does it happen? Do WAFIC make political contributions?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agriculture, Forestry and Fishing - Services to Agriculture; Hunting and Trapping $910,695.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe look at this link to verify above!
http://www.political-donations.org....ns-By-Industry/
Oh yes indeed - the corporate Fishing pro's bodies DO make substantial political donations - don't they!
When you people all scratch ya head and wonder how in the heck - a Fisheries minister could ever support netting of bream, after all the submissions and negative publicity we generated during the campaign against netting which we lost - THERE in black and white is WHY we lost!
The almighty $
The pro's just BOUGHT themsleves an outcome - by political donations.
Bling Bling Bling - a light goes on!
Yes - thats essentially a corrupt practice.......because - politicians are not SUPPOSED to accept bribes, but political donations are NOT considered a bribe...
Yet - under corporations law - no Corporation can MAKE a political donation for the good of the common cause they MUST by LAW make all payments with a realistic expectation of generating a profit for their shareholders!
i.e, ANY political donation made by a corporation, MUST by defenition be a bribe, since the corporation cannot spend ANY shareholder $ unless it is expected to make a profit for the shareholder!!!
So - how do WAFIC support the labor party - under corporate law unless it is a BRIBE???
Wakey wakey people, hand off snakey - tis time to sit up and realise - that ol trouty, has go the answer to WHY, we can't win the netting issue!
Corrupt practices are operating against you - a deal has already been done!
And people are silly enough to believe the tripe, that well meaning people like Terry F put out, suggesting no deals have been done, and that we can make a difference to the outcome - by participating in public consultation processes.
The fact is, we cannot!
All we do by participating in such nonsense - is help to legitimise, for the corrupt politicians - a corrupted process where the outcome is already pre-determined, and a deal has already been done - in return for substantial political donations!
What? Your shocked by my revelations?
Trouty could be right?
Terry F could be WRONG?
Wake up people, the fix is in! The deals done...
Dissenting opinions - you see to me, I believe I've proved - that deals have been done - from bedroom deals, to donations deals, specific user group deals, and everything in between!.
Now - you can do like Terry says and make submissions heavens knows I've made hundreds of them - only to eventually realise that $1M in donations butys an awfull lot of favours...from politicians - the same ones who USE the number of public submissions they totally ignore - to "justify their corrupt actions" by quoting they "consulted widely with industry and effected user groups".
The REAL truth is - that, the process is fundamentally flawed in that it is corrupted.
Do we honestly wish to be a part of that?
I don't know what one has to do to make people wake up - to the 'unwritten rules of the game'...i.e the $ kickbacks to pollies.
I really do like Terry F - beavering away in the background - trying to make a difference in a world where corruption is going to beat him every time...but he never gives up and he's dedicated and committed, (and works hundreds and hiundreds of unpaid hours).
You know what - they (the corrupt politicians who are using him) will, "reward" him with honours, maybe a medal - or even an Australia day honour maybe - heck knows he deserves it, for he is a true believer...in a system of democracy that in an ideal world WOULD work.
Sadly - we don't live in an ideal world, and while the Terrys of this world are beavering away - their efforts are being used by corrupt corporations and politicians - to "whitewash" their nefarious activities, and behind closed doors kickback deals.
They will do exactly as they please - they will publish a report saying they consulted widely with industry and all affected partys - and thoise who follow Terrys exhortations to make written submissions will validate the fact, that they did indeed consult widely!
BUT - will they take one blind bit of notice of whats written?
or
Will they do just as they have agreed with those who donated almost a $million to their re-election campaign.
Terry would like to have people believe, that I am doing anglers a disservice by suggesting they are wasting their time - making written submissions to Fisheries et all (CALM etc etc) on any of the issues facing us as recreational anglers.
Perhapshe's right and I am, but then again - perhaps I'm right (as i believe after my experience with all the detailed submissions I've made at various times)....and they don't make one ounce of difference and all they do is help justify a corrupted process!
We as anglers need to decide whether we want to continue being part of the problem or begin to be part of the answer.
The Answer - is to not keep allowing politicians to claim they have broad support for their decisions because they have consultyed widely.
If no one makes any comment - then they have to admit either:-
Everyone is totally apathetic, and so they have a mandate from the people to do as they please:
or
The public havve lost ALL FAITH in them, and as a reslt wont validate their corrupted public consultation process by participating.
They will find out either way at the ballot box - for that is our only last line of selfe defence!
Least, thats my view after years of beavering away trying to make a difference and not understanding why nothings ever achieved!.
Now I KNOW.
$1M will buy you a lot of loyalty from a politician!
Cheers!
bruiser
Posts: 148
Date Joined: 09/08/05
it WAS
it WAS a very interesting and informative post...what happened...the posts disappeared...now they're back and we're bored to death.
Can we get back to fishing.....
Adam Gallash
Posts: 15610
Date Joined: 29/11/05
Fishing
What is the best way for the wetline industry to move foward without some sort of consultation from the interest groups?
Site Admin - Just ask if you need assistance
WallyOld
Posts: 22
Date Joined: 22/11/05
Geez Flywest not sure how
Geez Flywest not sure how old ya are cobber but if ya older then 36, I am giving up fisheries management sh&t hey.
Your scaring me with this conspiracy theories bro.I, can handle what the Yanks are doing in new age mags, but back door deals to piss guys like you off is more then a conspiracy theory
Personally I think, attacking Terry is way below the belt.Its a post to inform the minority on what is happening,Don't shot the messenger people can make their own minds up.
Great if you feel different, start a new thread on why you shouldnt make a submission
No malice at all Flywest I just don't like ya taking the piss out of a bloke who gives up heaps of his time for others, and I thank him for that
Wally Parkin
Ps I thought it was Feltcha burg who called Fat chance a fatty, thats why the Blackwood didn't get the no netting approval.Then again, that in its self is some kind of payback conspiracy,Or tackle shop gosip
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
Move forward?
Wetline industry to move forward Adam?
Who are the wetliners?
Some of em are decent, down to earth blokes, with their life investement in their boat & license and they battle to make ends meet.
They fish hard and long - often in crappy seas and weather, in short, a job you wouldn't wish on ya worst enemy - but fair play to em - they love it & it's their life!
For the industry to survive - they must protect the resource.
Probably some sorta quota system might work IF (and it's a big if) the TRUE sustained yeild capacity of the resource is properly established. (I have some reservations about Fisheries WA's scientists ability to get this right, based on some of their past assessement methods, eg pink snapper in shark bay...ask Geoff Wilson Knots and Snapper books guru, what I'm on about...one of our pet subjects) - BUT having said that, - I've worked with a few of their researchers and they are a good bunch a blokes, always learning / refining their methodologies in line with new research methods around the world and incorporating new technologys(like DNA sampling etc etc)
So..(in a nutshell)
Get the research right - quatify the resource, establish a REALISTIC "sustained yeild" capacity, and allocate a quota.
Sadly Pro fishers here hate quota's - theres an entrenched perception, right or wrong, that the better fishermen are 'penalised' if a quotas introduced...aainst the lazy, less intelligent or less well equipped, competitor fisherman.
Most pro's would prefer the current management strategy of tweaking CFE ratios (Catch for effort) i.e. reducing pots, days off over the full moon, shorter season etc etc, so they can still outfish their neighbor..
Thats proven to be a tough way to manage the resource..
But it is human nature to be competitive.
The pro's who SHOULDN'T be wetlining IMHO are the Rock Lobster license holders, who have traditionally held a wetline license from the days when they used to catch their own bait...(now they import 20,000 tonnes of frozen north sea herring annually for bait...but thats a different subject altogether - can anyone say pilchard mass mortalitys)
These guys who used to catch their own bait, now use droplines, to catch high value slow growing demersals (OK Dhui's) at the beginning and end of each line of cray pots.
It gets sold to pubs in towns up n down the coast at relatively cheap prices (compared to what it might bring in say a high class restuarant where we buy nile perch under fish substiution rackets at Dhufish prices), and what for? - yep to pay their months fuel bill!
If anyone KNEW anything about the rock lobster industry - these guys all make a half to $1 Million (or more) a year every year, (theres 600 of em and they export $600,000,000 worth a year and some of em own 3 or more licenses!).
Lets not mention they pay us the owner of the resource - not a cent in resource rents (royalties). Any other natural resource sector does - miners pay royalties - loggers pay royalties - cray fisherman pay NOTHING to us the public. What they do pay, is a "cost recovery license fee", i.e. they pay Fisheries dept what it costs to administer the cray industry!
We the public whos resourse they rape n pillage, get diddly squat!
Did I mention we will have to buy some of that resource back under current IFM proposals? (Integrated Fisheries Management).
So - millionaires, get access to our resource for nada - and all make a $Million a year each - and yet, they are so poor - they have to set drop lines for Dhui's to help pay their fuel bill????????
Someones havin a lend of us!
It shouldn't be happening, these people don't have a valid claim to a resource so highly valued by the public...when in reality - you can't catch a dhui - because they needed em all to pay their fuel bills!
You can't confuse these Cray boys - with the real wetliners - they are two different classes of fishermen.
You only have to look at their boats....cray boys in $Million+ new boats every 5 years and wetliners in old garbage scows a indo refugee would turn his nose up at!
Yes - wetline needs a LOT of changes, before it will ever be anything worhtwhile and before rec anglers will get a fair shake.
Spatial separation.
Spatial separation
There I said it twice. (To emphasis it!)
In my opinion - there should be spatial separation between pro and rec - no pro's fishing within 3 nautical mile of land.
Why?
Well lotsa reasons - the Dead Kid In Busselton run down by a cray boat for starters... (don't get me started on that one). But there are other reasons as well - rec fishers don't have the access opportunity (i.e restricted days, they work for a living, + limited range, due to smaller size / range on rec boats and so on and so forth...restricted to distance from appalling rec launch facilities etc etc etc).
So - how we doing so far?
Theres a few for starters.
In answer to Wally - coz I know his hearts in the right place, just like Terry.
Mate - if you'd seen the deleted posts from early on in this thread, you'd a seen that I know and like Terry a LOT - he's been and stayed at my place, and I consider him a first rate & top bloke.
That said - these places are where we put ideas forward and have to be prepared to discuss, debate and at times defend them!.
Tis nothing at all personal against Terry - and I'm reasonably sure, deep down, he knows that!
But- I told him at the outset (now deleted) that we would just have to agree to disagree on this one issue, as men should be able to do, without it being taken personally!.
You would likely have missed all that - due to Terry withdrawing his posts for his own reasons and as a result - me doing likewise.
I maintain the position - that to participate...in a system that is fundamentally flawed and corrupt is not good for rec fishing IMHO.
I say that because my life experience has taught me that.
I well remember this particular Govt (the Labor Party of WA).
Love em or hate em, they are to me known to be corrupt. So much so that as a whistle blower - I forwent an exemplary 18 year Public service career to testify in the supreme court against ex deputy premier David (brown paper bag) Parker, and two CALM colleagues during the WA inc era - sending the two corrupt fellow officers to jail!.
I learned the hard way how this govt works, I used to work for them on the inside where the secret deals were done, I used to write their propaganda (spin doctoring). Ok the faces out front keep changing just like a revolving door - but the party hacks, numbers men and union thugs, running the party are still the SAME crooks running the party, when I took em on all those years ago!.
Now - I was once a true believer like Terry, and they USED me too - just like they are using him now IMHO.
Terry truly belives in his cause, and sadly, in my experience, they LOVE to use such idealistic people for their own ends. They will massage anyones ego, in order to achieve their nefarious ends....like I said he will likely get a medal (Heck I once nominated him myself for an award to Fisheries WA, in recognition of his sterling efforts!)
I'm trying pretty hard to point out to Rec Anglers, WHY no one in politics or Fisheries Dept, gives a round rats touche about our concerns...for the future of our fishstocks.
In a perfect world they would - and in a perfect world, what Terry is suggesting would be the very, very, best thing to do and I would be right in their alongside him with shoulder to the wheel urging you all to do likewise.
Heck - in the past I've done just that - national email campaigns to stop netting and so on and so forth - marlin steaks bouycott of Woolworth and Coles supermarkets, heck Wally I been in there fighting the good fight - Just like Terry is now!.
The only difference I guess - is I KNOW from very hard won experience (try losing your job at 30ish with 3 kids a wife & a mortgage because you did the right thing and blew the whistle on crooks!), that when these crooks are in powoer - all the usual rules of conduct go out the window!.
Have we all forgotten the WA inc era?
Have we all forgotten that Gallop and Judy Edwards BOTH quit only a couple weeks ago?
Did ANYONE here swallow that bulldust about depression?
When will we really find out what happened?
Will it be when the CCC gets to the bottom of the Investigation into one of the CCC ladies who tipped off the parliamentary secretary who was embezzeling govt funds to support his drug habit? Were they both somehow comlicit in that? - will it all come out in 12 months time at the trial? - did they quit to avoid emabarrassing the party? Who knows?
What we SHOULD know - is that the whole lot of em are crooks - so bent they couldn't lay straight in bed at night, because it's a pre- requisite for their job!
I know these things, I learned 'em the hard way at great personal cost!
Sometimes - when the regime is corrupt / crooked - then it's better not to be involved and I am suggesting in my own inimitable way - that this is one of those times!.
You know a LOT of good people got suckered in by Hitler in Germany and believed everything he said, and look where that led!
A LOT of them wished they'd never got involved!.
I'm trying to suggest to people that this is ONE of those times...when it might later prove to have been better NOT to have been involved, lest history judge you harshly (like it did ALL the German people of WW2 era! as an example!).
Wally - I'm well over 36 mate - 10 years past that...47 this year.
Sometimes "experience" is something that the young guys who frequent this site & fish so hard, CAN'T learn at school - heck some of em were likely in single digit years when the WA Inc era happened!
If those with the life experience - dont stand up and point out the error of some things that might otherwise, on the surface, appear to be quite reasonable, - then they MSUT be doomed to repeat the same mistakes all over again!
Wheres the benefit in that?. You can't put an old head on young shoulders, but you can sure as heck try to wise em up just a LITTLE bit, by relating a bit of experience - showing em how to think independently.
One thing I'm certain of Wally, is that the future of our resource, rests with these fine young people!.
If they can't think and act independantly, then what chance does our fishery resource have? (against the aforementioned crooks?)
These young people have time on their side to bring about the changes necessary, to effect change in how things are run (i.e. generational change) - if they can see the obvious faults in the system we have now, because someone takes the time and trouble to point it out to them, and teaches em to think independantly for themselves, then just maybe they can bring about the changes, we have NOT been able to in our lifetimes, despite our best efforts!.
Thats my motivation!.
I would sugest that both mine and Terrys motivations, both have the SAME high moral ground, in that we both passionaltely believe in what we are doing / saying.
This is why I said at the very outset to Terry, that we would have to agree to disagree on this one subject!
Does that mean I'm taking the "P" outta Terry? Not one bit! I admire the man for habving the courage of his convictions - right or wrong in my opinion.
You know the Yanks have a saying for this...
To me that about sums it up!.
Cheers!
Walky
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 25/07/05
Rock Lobster Wetlining etc.
One thing that interests myself and some others I have spoken to on this issue and was alluded to by Flywest is the issue of the wetline license that is basically part of every cray license. I haven`t heard of the droplines in the lines of pots but have heard many stories of very large quantities of Dhufish and Baldchin being taken by deckies and/or skippers at the start and end of the season by both droplines and other methods. Just in case they haven`t made enough money !!!!!!! I am aware that something was done in regard to Baldchin at the Abrolhos to counter this practice but as usual no-one had the cojone`s to do it properly so a window of opportunity was left open which has probably made the rape and pillage by these well heeled overgunned fish destroyers even worse.
I used to be in horticulture and would still be if someone else grew all the crops for us and all we had to do was buy a harvester!!!!!!
Anyway I digress, the main issue that I wanted to raise is the issue of sustainability, as most of you would be aware the Western Rock Lobster fishery is one of the few fisheries and I think the only Rock Lobster fishery to have received approval from the ``Marine Stewardship Council`` or MSC to use their sustainability logo (tick) .I presume that means that the WRL fishery has been investigated and found to be a sustainable well managed fishery by the MSC or according to their criteria. If this is the case I wonder whether the investigation looked at other fisheries that are adversely affected by these same WRL fisherman such as longlived demersal species like the aforementioned Dhufish and whether the WRL fishermens effect on these species is sustainable.
The issues are of course that these guys would not be out there if it wasn`t for the WRL (they are not wetliners as there is not enough money in that for these boys), they wouldn`t know where to find these fish if not for the WRL, etc. etc.
So in a nutshell the sustainability and profitability of the WRL fishery is contributing to the demise of other valuable local fisheries. I can only presume that the MRC did a full analysis of the sustainability of the North Sea Herring fishery if that is the major bait source for the WRL fishery, if not that may be a case of the sustainable WRL fishery adversely affecting valuable non-local fisheries as well.
So taking all that in to account I wonder how valuable the MSC seal of approval is to the WRL fisheries marketing effort and if by bringing all of the above to the MRCs attention could the WRL fishery possibly lose their accreditation.
Therefore the final scenario is WRL boys, what is more valuable to the industry the MSC accreditation or your wetline license? No boys you can no longer have them both !!!!!!!! and if they were serious about sustainability we know which way you would jump. Or perhaps you would like to keep your wetline license as a true license and hand back your crayfish one?????????
Anyway just some thoughts to consider and I am sure all of you guys out there may have some opinions and information you would like to add to the above so I look forward to seeing what we can come up with.
Judging by what happened down south it appears that the surfing fraternity has a far stronger voice in government (fisheries) circles than the recreational fishing industry has ever had so lets try and rectify that for a start.
One other thing worth mentioning here is that if the MSC were approached independently (Recfishwest perhaps)we may be able to exert pressure on the WRL boys from outside government circles so that their bag of $$$$$ doesn`t enter the equation.
Keep your hooks bent
Walky
PS : I suppose its a bit like the guy with two girlfriends one named Edith and one named Kate.
The moral of the story being you can`t have your Kate and Edith too.
Walky
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 25/07/05
MSC
Part of a blurb from MSCs website
We reward environmentally responsible fisheries management and practices with our distinctive blue product label . If you are concerned about overfishing and its environmental and social consequences you will increasingly be able to choose seafood products which have been independently assessed against our environmental standard and labelled to prove it. Our label will assure you that the product comes from a well managed fishery and has not contributed to the environmental problem of overfishing.
We have three offices around the world and work in partnership with all those who have an interest in securing a sustainable future.
The last sentence in the second paragraph may be just the ticket , one would hope that the onus is on the WRL to prove their slaughter of demersal species is sustainable rather than a requirement on someone else to prove otherwise.
Walky
Gully
Posts: 963
Date Joined: 04/10/05
WRL's cont
Your right Walky about the crayfish industry having a MSC award which isnt bad considering only a handfull are given out. However what very few people know is that recently the industry was under fire and in danger of loosing the award mainly because they got the award then rested on their lorels. I am pretty sure that is part of the reason for the big shake up of the industry of late.
Have to agree with other people here in that I dont think you should be able to own and fish with two different licences in a season. As far as I see it, fair enough if you want to buy and own two licenses but you should only be able to fish with one per year or at any one time. Being able to drop pots and then at the end of the day pull in wetlines is an absolute joke if you ask me.
Gully
Gully
Posts: 963
Date Joined: 04/10/05
licences
Im not saying that they should give up their livleyhood, good luck to them I wish I was could afford one, but I still think the licences should be seperate and they should fish for one or the other thats all.
In reply to the illegal activities of people, well all people are responsible rec and pro and they should be all dealt with harsher if you ask me to make sure it doesnt happen. I have seen the recs taking over their limits, pulling other peoples pots etc but they still do it. I also know of pros who do it to the extent of cutting the pleopods off breeding females or over potting. So the fines obviously arent working to well at present as people still feel the need to do the wrong thing.
What it comes down to is the need for the government and fisheries to change a few things and make it better and fairer for all
Walky
Posts: 95
Date Joined: 25/07/05
30 years ago
I think that 30 years ago no-one really worried too much about anything environmental ,for a start the majority of our resources both fishing and other were certainly not in the parlous state that they are now.
You mention the devastation done by mining -- well as I understand it they are required to rehabilitate the land once mining is finished and they also pay substantial royalties to the government as well as providing significant employment opportunities . Mining is the major driver of this states economy is it not?.I think without the money flowing into the economy from mining and related industries the majority of tackle shops in WA would go broke!
With regard to farming the majority of the damage you speak of was done back when people knew no better and if you were to check your facts you would find that the government of the day actively encouraged the clearing of marginal land which of course is wear the majority of the damage is. These days the majority of farmers are far better ``stewards of the land`` as they understand the damage that has been done by past generations and they can see that there is no point in overusing land now only to have it so degraded in a few years time that it has no use whatsoever.They need to manage the resource under their control to ensure that farming is a viable option for future generations.
Many commercial fishing practices from days gone by have now also been outlawed or put under various controls -- are you naive enough to think that bottom trawling for demersal species does not damage delicate bottom structure beyond repair as well as indiscriminately taking fish of all sizes (no size limit for pros you just have to look in any fish shop baby snapper ?? baby baldchin etc)-- what about the good old trap boats eh what do you think happens to delicate coral reefs when great heavy steel cages are dropped on them from above. Is this not environmental destruction ?? oh but its underwater so its not visible so we don`t talk about it .I could go on longlining , driftnetting but where would I stop.
Where are the royalties and the major contribution to the economy from these practices .Small industries but large destructive influences .
As for illegal rec fishing practices at least those that are caught are proscuted to the full extent of the law -- this is why we have laws.
Anyway I would appreciate being enlightened if any of the above is incorrect.
Walky
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
To add to Walkys post about take of Dhufish & Baldies
Just a short addition to Walkys post about crayfishermen taking Dhufush and Baldchin (Bluebone call em what you will), on setlines, while cray fishing.
They actually get a reasonably decent feed each day (skipper and deckhands) from decent fish that enter the cray pots themselves! (and can't get out before the pots winched aboard!).
This is in addition - to those they can and do catch on set lines used at the start end of each line of pots on occasions!.
Now - lets tale a look at the bycatch issue here - and the anomalous differences between Pros rules and the rules for rec fishers.
You know - if for example you are a rec fisherman dragging a prawn net at night for a feed of prawns - that - you must let go all the blue manna crabs you catch! Similarly - if you recreational net in say the peel estuary on a wedneday night - you must release alive and gently any blue mannas tangled in the set net - (and any cobbler barramundie and a few others)...not that you'd get a barra in the Peel, but I digress!
So - why can pros keep demersal fish that get caught in their lobster pots? (Bycatch...and the same question could apply to all the octopus!)
OK - they MAY have a wetline license - but bycatch from a lobster pot is hardly "wet lining" is it????
Shouldn't all those deckies and skippers free lunches,(and occy bait) go straight back over the side alive & unmolested??????
So - where is "Bycatch" and "equity of treatement" of (pros versus recs) in the legislation, mentioned in any of the review submissions?
Why are recreational fishermen - effectively second class citizens in the way the Fisheries rules are enforced by Fisheries WA dept in comparison to the pro's in bycatch retention issues??
Why do we have to throw things back while pros get to fillet and grill em????
Could it be because Pro's make LAARGE $ political contributions?????(Thru WAFIC?)
Good question - no?
You'll find I'm CHOKKA BLOCK FULL of "good questions" that LOTS of people (with a vested $ interest) would prefer weren' asked!!!
But you dont have to worry - because I KNOW (from hard won experience - that NONE of these issues wuill ever make it past the public submissiosn review process - that is after all - what all the LARGE $ POLITICAL DONMATIONS are paid for - to ensure the pro's get their way (and screw the rec fisher in the bargain!).
Course Terry sings a totally different tune...
Maybe theres middle ground - but I sincerely doubt it.
Food for thought - no?
(And when you see me consistently "banned / locked / deleted / edited" from threads at various fising websites around the internet - you know the political "bribe" er "donations" money's being put to good use!). wink!
Cheers!
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
Another issueMSC award!
Gully I think mentioned the MSC award. (Environmental sustainablility issue).
Years ago - when I used to sell venison to resturants from our deer farm, we were offered the right to use the national heart foundations Red Heart with a Tick symbol on our product!
Venison is a good product, low in choleterols and bad fats etc (less than 1% fat over the entire carcass and high in iron etc etc)...BUT - you know what?
There was NO TESTING of our meat required - all we had to do - to be able to legally use the RED HEART FOUNDATION TICK on our product and promotional literature????
Yep! You guessed it - pay em a HUGE annual fee for their trademark!!!!! (Talk about a scam!...heck Fish n Chips & Macca's could BUY a red tick if they wanted!). :Rollseyes:
My sugesstion to you all - is that the much vaunted MSC sustainability award the WRL boys spruke so much about...is just the same - send a cheque and I wager I could probably get it for just about any product you want to name!
What I'm saying is - tis all a marketing ploy and means nuthing in the real world..
How can I justify that comment?
Well - think about it (here we go again...think independantly - let your OWN brain consider the truth rather than swallowing what propaganda you are spoon fed by politicians and Fisheries WA Dept....starting to sound familiar - no???)
The IFM (Integrated Fisheries Management Process) is considering the allocations of WRL resource between Rec & Pro at the moment...(Another public submissions process - don't get me started!)
And - what have we just seen in the changes for this sseasons WRL season?
Yep - reduced CFE ratios (Catch for effort) i.e days off over the full moon reduced pot numbers increased sizes, etc, etc, etc, - all designed to reduuce the overall catch..
Why?
Because the resource is under threat is why!
Fisheries research Purelus (sp?) counts by Fisheries researchers show the recruitment of juveniles for 4 years time hence, are way way down on forecasts - somethings WRONG!...so we need to URGENTLY reduce total catch effort.
Soo - again color me dumb... but this is what happens to a resource fished within sustained yeild limits???????????
This is what happens to a resource with the Marine Stewardship Council tick????
Dunno bout you people - but to me the Marine Stewardship Council are probably the same scammers who came up with the Heart Foundation Tick of approval! (Same dog - different leg!).
The really SAD thing is that again - the rec fisher will have to bail it out with our $.
Licenses may go up to something like $170 a year if Frank Prokops recent press release from Recfishwest is to be believed..
My own calculations under the proposed current new IFM resource sharing rules for WRL in 10 years time - are that bag limits for that $170 a year license will end up being 1 sized cray every second day, for rec anglers unless we BUY BACK some of the resource allocatiuon from the pros...due to growth in recreational fishing numbers against a fixed meagre % of the resource being offered us under IFM management paper, released for public comment.
I did tell you a $1Million buys a LOT of loyalty from a politician, didn't I? wink!
Yes - we will be buying back our own resource from pro's who don't own it and pay NO ROYALTIES / RESOURCE RENT to us the public who own the resource, for access to that publicly owned resource! We will in effect be PAYING THE PROS to stayhome and NOT FISH, for FISH THEY DON"T OWN!
Hello people - your being screwed in case it hasn't dawned on you yet!
$1 Million in political donations - sure goes a long way with politicians, don't it?
Gotta get me a job where I'm paid to stay home and not catch something, I don't own anyway! :Rollseyes:
Yup yup yup -
The fix is NOT IN! :Rollseyes:
Deals have NOT all been DONE :Rollseyes:
Freakin' heck, am I the only one with even half a brain LEFT who can see how we are being screwed over??
And yet I get blocked / deleted/ edited/ banned / from Fishing websites the nation over???????????
Yeah, I wonder why?.........can anyone say $1M worth of good reasons!
Cheers! ;o)
autogenous carb...
Posts: 2
Date Joined: 11/02/06
The above link
The above link http://www.political-donations.org doesnt exist?
Could you supply a corrected link Flywest?
Cheers,
Carbonatis
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
Correct link?
Ohh you mean one a these!
http://www.political-donations.org.au/issues/Donations-By-Industry/
Coitently sir! ;o)
Sometimes these things don't / copy paste too well from one forum to another - something to do with the html script they use if it's different I suspect.
Funny it works at th eother forum but not here...
Ohh well the full one above might help!
Cheers!
autogenous carb...
Posts: 2
Date Joined: 11/02/06
Flywest Sometimes these
Flywest Sometimes these things don't / copy paste too well from one forum to another
Should be fine if the URL is copied in its entirety.
Yes some sites use javascript html tagging. This site appears to use a combination of the two.
It may well be your browser or the site script that is abbreviating the URL path
Those donation amounts appear to be between the 92/93 04/05 fiscal periods.
Thankyou for the corrected URL path
Fly
Posts: 485
Date Joined: 04/02/06
Could just be my Phat Phingers too!
Hands like a square mouth shovel - I'm gonna invent me a phat phingers keyboard for Aussie blokes - and make a $gazzilion like Bill Gates!
Every key shaped & size like a stubby cap! he he he..
No letters on keys just beer description..
XXXX
VB
etc
That way we get less keys... ;o)
Hey - you know wy Queenslanders put XXXX on their cans & stubbies?
Can't spell b e e r! he he he!
Cheers!