One bullet can split into two or more pieces after hitting an object or hard surface with each fragment potentially maintaining enough velocity to cause serious injury to bystanders.
So one bullet could potentially injure two or more people and as I believe it there were several shots fired.!
Would love to see you in that situation mate. A fucking lunatic coming at you with a carving knife, easy to be critical in your arm chair. Useless pricks, nahhhh self preservation. They are doing a job just like you and me.
Iwont ever be in that situation! However i will comment from my arm chair. As they let the so called lunatic out. Then shot him and 3 other people. Pretty sure if i went to work and fucked up that much i wouldnt be doing a job like you and me!!!!! So i will call them usless pricks.
Who let him out? The cops? That's what you alude to. Your comment makes no sense. You surely can't blame the cops for doing their job in a split second. Average comment from someone who has no idea of being in that situation.
Don't get narky, like I said I will never be I that situation. Obviously you've got a better judgement on this situation? Would you like to share more on the self preservation and wounding of innocent bystanders?
No I'm not but it shits me when ill informed comments such as yours are posted without knowing the whole story. Yeah innocent people were shot and maybe it was unavoidable. Maybe you'd have been happier that this lunatic was let to run free and cut up whoever he like without being challenged?
I am sure the police acted to the best of their ability when faced with this situation.
They are faced with an aggressive adult in a public place, armed with a knife, acting irrational, Possibly on drugs ( they don't really know at this stage) and then it comes to a point at which they have to act to protect themselves and the innocent people around them who are looking at the police to protect them during this !!
If they let a shot off and he continues towards them ....It's natural that they will fire another off and another until the threat has been stopped. Adrenaline would be running high no matter how much training they have had because they have all of a sudden been placed in a REAL life and death situation for them and the public.!!
That would be quite confronting no matter how much training you have had.
Yep you have a lethal weapon that can easily kill or injure someone..so you must be very careful not to injure innocent people right. Not these clowns. Why so many shots. Just one in the guts would of sorted that prick out. They should be charged with at very least going armed in public to cause terror [ Because that is exactly what they done ] or even causing grieves bodily harm. Just like we would of been if it was us. Sack them now.
Maybe they should be trained like the Israeli police Wayne, one shot to the head , no further risk. Then we'd have an army of critics asking why they had to kill the poor deprived soul. Like I said it's survival, this prick is obviously insane and off his collective tits. I'd shoot the fucker 20 times if needed. It's just unfortunate there were innocent bystanders. After all it was a crowded place.
I know its easy for us to be armchair critics, but after watching that show a couple of years back called "the recruits", following a group of NSW police recruits I must admit to being quite suprised at some of those who were passed.
Many had never had any contact with a firearm before which can be understood. However some had to be openly coaxed into even touching the firearms initially and one female failed the test numerous times and was coached individually thru it something like 15 times as she couldnt draw it with one hand from the holster. A pass (from memory) was to draw the weapon, fire two shots into a round target about the size of a 44 lid at 3-5 meters and holster in about 10 seconds.
This is way less than required at SSAA pistol/holster training. Have also found at our club live .40 cal ammo left in the grass (only law has .40 in WA), and been told by a friend in the game that some simply give away their yearly training quota of ammo as there seems to be no requirement to actually use it!
Well they all have to start somewhere Rob and some are better than others. We all act differently in situations and no matter how much training , being in that type of situation is surreal for the best of them. There are fuck ups from the best of the best even in the SAS. To call these officers useless pricks is just a cheap shit statement.
Gut shots don't stop someone who is amped until their body starts to react as law enforcement use solid projectiles causing minimal trauma. There's no way we want our police to be armed with bullets that fragment on impact with tissue as there is no coming back from being hit by one of these. One of the downsides of using a traditional projectile is that they do pass through and fragment when hitting secondary objects.
Be funny if you were a bystander and got yourself shot by cops behaving badly Paully. Wonder what you would have to say then. You cant defend anyone police included doing shit like that. You must think the police are above the law well guess what..they aren't. These clowns didn't need to fire of a volley of shots at close range. With people everywhere why not try the tazer. Off to the inspector with them.
Oh and by the way he didn't have a large knife as reported. He was carrying a small pair of scissors. Cops bull shitting again. Unlucky for the police someone took a pic of it and yep that big knife turned out to be a little pair of scissors LOL but i agree he should of been dealt with even shot..but spare the public from bullets. A public shooting should be avoided at all costs..it wasn't. Apparently a female police officer was quick on the draw but unfortunately a shit shot.
It has been said above that the three shots fired resulted in hits in the arm, leg and stomach. I don't know just where that info came from, however it remains to be seen in what order he was hit and just what the bystanders where hit with.
Was it pieces of bullet jacket, was it whole projectiles I think it is fair to say that we don't know just what the bystanders where hit with and how bad their injuries are.
There are just so many questions that the public would like answered, and dare I say it no doubt these questions will be answered. The enquiry into the Lyndat (I think that's the name of the place) shooting shows that when people are shot there is a very through investigation into what happened and why.
No doubt we all remember the police shooting which happened in Bentley I think it was where the guy had the lady held at knife point and was shot by a couple of police, her died the hostage was wounded.
We place our trust in these fine men and women to use the tools we arm them with for the protection of the public and themselves. In a split second they have to make a decision which can result in a person loosing their life or in this case resulting in the offender being neutralized and unfortunately 3 bystanders being wounded to what degree and by what we don't know. The police are trained to shoot at the largest part of the person, ie: the chest.
Do we know at what range the police fired on the offender, I haven't read anything to that effect.
Before we make any sort of judgement on these members of the police force lets wait until a lot more facts are available.
Meglodon, I like your words mate.
Too many arm chair experts & people who think they are too tuff, with just bullshit talk.
Bet we would all be glad if the Police shot someone who potentially was going to harm one of the people we loved, even if we got hit in the process.
Trained to shoot to remove the threat. Trained to shoot at the largest area of seen mass (ie torso). Its proven that after a person has been shot they can still run up to 7 m. If they carry a knife they can still injury someone. Thats why there is more than one shot.
Unless you have had to point a firearm at someone knowing you may have to pull the trigger in a split second, you will never know what goes through their minds in those few seconds.
If you havent been in that situation yourself, please dont judge them.
The call was made that a person was armed with a large kitchen knife in a public place and was shouting Allah Achbar. There have been numerous incidents worldwide of lone wolf terror attacks of a similar nature.
An active armed offender in a busy public area requires an immediate response.
You and your partner respond. You both have bad basic firearms training at static targets in a sterile range, qualify once a year fire less than 50 rounds over an hour. You have a Taser which is a single shot weapon that statistically is effective 50% of the time. Again you train on it once a year but because the cartridges cost $50 each for live ones and $20 for training ones you only fire 3.
You locate the person, no shirt on, yelling, shouting and waving a large bladed knife. You call upon him to not move and put the knife down. He is less than 7 meters from you. At that range FBI research has shown that a person armed with a knife can close and strike several times before the average law enforcement officers can respond.
He responds by running at you and is about to try to kill you. All you are looking at is that knife. Fire one shot, you don't know if you have hit as he is still coming. Fire again, he is still coming and is almost on top of you. Fire again and he falls to the ground.
You then find out that one or two of your rounds have passed through the offender and hit bystanders.
Hit bystanders, imagine if those bullets killed bystanders!!!!! That would be pretty bad for the bystanders! Especially if the person getting shot at lives.
Pepper spray doesn't work on everyone. Usually takes a few seconds to work. It doesn't normally work on psychotic patients.
It is about 80% psychological and 20% physical.
I have seen a video of a Trg officer cop a full can to the face, enter the range at Maylands and empty 2 mags into the centre of the target.
I have also been fighting with 18 year old somalian in Mirrabooka. I was with two other officers and were struggling on the ground with him. One of my partners gave him a full blast in the face, no effect. Except for secondary to me and my partner.
Bloke was moving pretty quick towards the cop. 2 shots fired and he staggers. Bystander hit with bullet after it has gone through him. Cops reposition and fire third shot to put him down.
Very bad that a bystander got hit in this exchange but for once i'm on the cops side. They responded to the public being thretened by a weapon weilding nutter and then get attacked by him. If they didnt shoot him then we would probably be reading a report of a cop being injured in the line of duty or even killed.
I think if anyone is threatening a police officer they should just shoot the perpetrator first rather than risk there own safety, it's a shit of a job and whatever they do they get told they should have done something else
I remember seeing a news report in the US someone attacked a police officer and after a standoff with police the dust had settled a news reporter was interviewing the commanding officer and asked why the police had shot him 63 times and his answer was " that was all the ammo we had at the time"
I am sick of crime and attacks on the public, especially old people
I can't imagine that all the people just standing around while all this took place. Wouldn't they run or clear the area? police has their guns drawn and yelling at the guy to put down his weapon. Yet people are still in close vicinity taking bloody iPhone videos, walking through the situation, lady still buying stuff at the market stalls......
How can that be a direct comparison to police officers who are doing a job to a civillian in their own home? By the way there was the Italian guy who shot those morons that broke into his house and threatened him and his wife up Swanview way and was never charged. Like I said above put yourself in the situation and see how you go, I reckon you'd probably empty the magazine in panic trying to put that fella down. And what if they'd done nothing and let him go if and cut a few of those innocent bystanders up because they couldn't subdue him with a taser or pepper spray. I'd bet my bottom dollar you'd be up in arms about them not doing enough.
Definatly a over reaction by police taser, spray, and batton are the first line of defence. Police are confronted by whack jobs regularly and they dont shoot all of them. Its a tough job granted but so is being a bouncer, shit shoveller soldier whatever. Regardless the end result was not ideal whichever point of view you take.
He had history of homicidal tendencies with cops and was known to them . The reports state he had a knife or whatever and when the cops showed up he had to be pointed out as he was just walking around amongst other people and had his back to them . It was when the cops from behind him yelled to him to put the knife down with their weapons drawn in the crowd that he switched on , turned around and went full retard just at them . I realise it was a spontaneous call but with the benefit of hindsight could a cop just have grabbed a civi jumper and walked in his vicinity and subdued him . It only escalated when they challenged him and given his history the outcome was foreseeable that he wasn’t going to comply . The officer was in self preservation mode which is all well and good for her but not so good for the bystanders which were directly behind . Maybe the only option once they got themselves in that situation unfortunately for her and in the best interests of public safety should’ve been to risk her own well being rather than innocents by pulling her baton out and going all Chuck Norris on him even if it meant taking one for the team until he was overpowered .
PS if your gonna shoot someone at least raise your firearm , straight armed at eyelevel not cowboy style and finish the job properly this wacko will now be a burden on society for ever more .
Back in the day a copper had to be at least 6 ft. Nowadays with political correctness gone crazy we have tiny little police girls with guns. I wonder what the outcome would have been if it was 2 burly bloke coppers first on the scene? Would think maybe they may have had the confidence to try something less lethal. Alas we will never know. As a side note tho if they come across anybody armed in public and chanting god is great shoot the M#-_ F#!!-kers in the head and save us all the cost of a trial. Feel sorry for the coppers involved screwed whatever happens.
Now because fishos are legends , I reckon if a couple of us were down at IGA and Mr Fruit Loop was walking around with a knife we would’ve shown some initiative by putting our superfisho capes on and taking him out with a bag of spuds and a bottle of Big Red tomato sauce therefore sorting it with no collateral damage ..
Edit : though should probably confirm first it wasn’t just the butcher going out for smoko .. and Paully up your nose with a rubber hose
When I was a young bloke working in the bank in the late 70's, those of us that we're tellers were all armed. Yep, under that counter where all the cash was, rested either a Smith and Wesson 38 or a 7mm Beretta We trained twice a year to use it with 50 rounds at the range every 6 months with a police instructor.
What made me laugh was the instructor told us one day, that if we felt the need to pull the pistol and shoot at an armed robber then we has better keep shooting until we ran out of ammo as he reckoned that the first 4 shots would just piss him off and if had a sawn off shotty he would only need one shot !
I've never forgotten that advice. Yep, if it had of been me I would have shot the bastard until he stopped twitching !
I think that prudence requires that before we make a call whether the shooting was called for lets see what the enquiry into the matter comes up with.
As a side note todays "West" reports that the father and son combo who made a "citizens arrest" on a guy who was caught robbing their business have been charged with serious assault. The robber ended up with server head injuries which put him in hospital for a while, robber is yet to be charged. How much force is too much.
Yep saw them being interviewed on the news a wile ago! The police defiantly have a funny way of going about things. You get in trouble for defending your own property! What's the go with that billy?
Because it's the law! Face palm! It's the Police's job to uphold the law if you get that concept. Nothing about how they want to go about it. Oh and l think you mean definitely not defiantly, two totally different words.
Come on, you'd be spitting chips if you found someone in your boat taking your prized fishing rod. What are you going to do? Stand around twiddling your fingers? offer the a return trip for 2 to the islands? Or stand around waiting for the boys in blue to show up? You must be one law abiding citizen sea kem.
Like I said to our friend Wayne if you're going to sort out shit heels stealing your gear , then give them a belting for sure but then don't inform the law. Dump them on the street or whatever. My point is as we've seen now your toast if you try to do the honourable thing and inform the law. If I had've caught the scum that stole my work trailer in the act there would have been no law involved.I feel for those blokes as I know what they are going through with drugged out shit trying to steal their hard earned work gear. The police can only do their job as the law is written I'm sure they feel just as hamstrung as us. I know my old man did who was a Federal copper for years and would see drug runners walk on bail many times, he told me of his frustrations of not being able to put these scum bags away. One of the reasons he quit in the end.
They must have said the wrong thing when interviewed.
Everyone has the legal protection of defence of property as long as reasonable force is used. But if you inflict more force than reasonable ie grievous bodily harm or death you may be charged.
They sank themselves when talking to the press. I remember seeing them on the news and thought at the time they may be in some trouble. Had two different stories.
If you have the belief that you or someone else is at risk of DEATH or GBH. you may use as much force as necessary to protect your self but may be called to justify that force.
Its bull shit..law for them and we punters dare not retaliate or else. A guy in the factory over from us got sick of being robbed [no police patrols even though many complains on this matter] so camped up at night over the weekend to sort the issue out.
Didn't take long for him to catch the arse wipe red handed. Well him being a big guy grabbed the offender and in the struggle he wacked him once or twice as you would.
Locked him in a room and calls the cops..Along come the cops after about a hour and guess what..they let the would be thief go [ young teenager of the cant charge them variety ] and took the property owner away and charged him with something on the line of unlawful imprisonment and if the arse wipe complained of being hit he would be charged with assault. This sort of thing pisses a lot of people off. Yet the police can shoot the shit out of you because you wont drop your weapon in this case a pair of scissors.
They keep saying large knife WhyTF do they need to bull shit like this for.. And Billy if it were me and only because I had a badge on I would shoot any f*cker who came close to me yelling their shit allah akbar even if their weapon was a toy knike. But not if there were people left right and centre behind the target. Whats wrong with pulling out the baton and belting him with that or even the taser which would of droped him in his tracks.
This police officer is like many a cop these day..not up to it. After her effort we had people laying injured all over the place. Please someone take her gun off of her before she kills a innocent. And for that matter disarm all female officers. You would think none are capable of handling a weapon.
maybe your mate should have been a little smarter and not called the cops. And this bullshit you keep reffering to Wayne is reported by the media. The other comments you make regarding females cops etc is just utter garbage.
Well constructed arguement there OW. Fair and valid points. Maybe we shouldnt allow the female cops to drive either? They are probably shit at that too?
Id like to see what you would actually do if you were ever in a situation like this, I bet you would shit yourself and pray for the police to save your sorry ass.
It may be Randall but I bet if she pull the glock out and you were behind me..you would be diving for cover cause there would be an above average chance you'd go done too. LOL
Yes i would take cover. Im not stupid. But theres actually very slim chance a trained officer will miss. Did any bullets actually miss in this instance?
I dont understand the question. But if youre asking me about justified shootings, on more than one occasion i have aimed a firearm at someone with the knowledge i may have to pull the trigger. Thankfully for everyone it didnt eventuate. I personally know someone who has shot and killed someone and the coroner found it was justifable homicide. He saved a girls life in doing so. In that instance the offender was holding a knife to her throat. He has never recovered mentally from having to do that. And that was a long time ago. It ended up costing him his career. As i said earlier, if you havent been in that position you dont know what goes through their minds. I have been, and i know others who have been. Its not something taken lightly or judged by others without the knowledge or all the facts.
Yep qualifying shoots, you know the type, the ones where everybody passes regardless of the results. As far as having guns and knives waved in front of your face or used in anger it is as common as muck just dosent get reported.
War stories are like opinions everyone has them but thats not what this thread is about. Now whilst I do have some sympathy for those involved the end result was far from ideal. Lethal force is the last resort and so it should be, it seems from the information availiable spray, taser or batton were not attempted.
Now whilst I will probably be labelled sexist, in my experience on average I would much rather have a male with a bit of dash dealing with a violent physical confrontation than a female.
Dealing with distraught women at a domestic is another matter entirely and women ususally excell at that, horses for courses.
Spray and pray isnt a solution it just creates more problems.
You say baton taser spray werent used and youre critical about going straight to lethal force. They are not trained to go first for oc, and then put that away and take out a baton, and then put that away and take out their taser..... theyre trained to assess and respond. Choose the appropriate justifable force level necessary. Any other action and theyre likely to lose control and then it will end very badly.
We all know its political correctness gone mad..I know a female police officer and she in matters like crowd control arresting nasty pricks and so on is as useless as tits on a bull. Stands about as high as knee high to a grasshopper. And by the way she hasn't got a clue on usefully using a weapon. Pity help us if she had to use it.
Andy this is what's going around you would think it is what was said..
Assistant Commissioner Denis Clifford said the male and female officers were in a life and death situation when psychiatric patient Jerry Sourian ran at them armed with a large carving knife.
Jason P
Posts: 521
Date Joined: 16/02/13
Think it was a ricochet off
Think it was a ricochet off the metal sculpture that was there.
DM306
MattMiller
Posts: 4171
Date Joined: 15/06/09
Yep
widely reported to have been ricochet
big john
Posts: 8726
Date Joined: 20/07/06
1
1 ricochet hitting three people? That's impressive.
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
Jigs available online in my web store!
LMoney
Posts: 14
Date Joined: 27/05/15
Clearly wasn't one ricochet
Clearly wasn't one ricochet from one shot.
Krusty
Posts: 714
Date Joined: 27/11/15
One bullet can split into
One bullet can split into two or more pieces after hitting an object or hard surface with each fragment potentially maintaining enough velocity to cause serious injury to bystanders.
So one bullet could potentially injure two or more people and as I believe it there were several shots fired.!
My fishing spots are so secret........... even the fish don't know where they are !!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Why did they have to shoot
Why did they have to shoot several times???????
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Would love to see you in
Would love to see you in that situation mate. A fucking lunatic coming at you with a carving knife, easy to be critical in your arm chair. Useless pricks, nahhhh self preservation. They are doing a job just like you and me.
Love the West!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Iwont ever be in that
Iwont ever be in that situation! However i will comment from my arm chair. As they let the so called lunatic out. Then shot him and 3 other people. Pretty sure if i went to work and fucked up that much i wouldnt be doing a job like you and me!!!!! So i will call them usless pricks.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Who let him out? The cops?
Who let him out? The cops? That's what you alude to. Your comment makes no sense. You surely can't blame the cops for doing their job in a split second. Average comment from someone who has no idea of being in that situation.
Love the West!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Don't get narky, like I said
Don't get narky, like I said I will never be I that situation. Obviously you've got a better judgement on this situation? Would you like to share more on the self preservation and wounding of innocent bystanders?
Are te you a copper?
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
No I'm not but it shits me
No I'm not but it shits me when ill informed comments such as yours are posted without knowing the whole story. Yeah innocent people were shot and maybe it was unavoidable. Maybe you'd have been happier that this lunatic was let to run free and cut up whoever he like without being challenged?
Love the West!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
You can't be serious?
You can't be serious?
Krusty
Posts: 714
Date Joined: 27/11/15
I am sure the police acted
I am sure the police acted to the best of their ability when faced with this situation.
They are faced with an aggressive adult in a public place, armed with a knife, acting irrational, Possibly on drugs ( they don't really know at this stage) and then it comes to a point at which they have to act to protect themselves and the innocent people around them who are looking at the police to protect them during this !!
If they let a shot off and he continues towards them ....It's natural that they will fire another off and another until the threat has been stopped. Adrenaline would be running high no matter how much training they have had because they have all of a sudden been placed in a REAL life and death situation for them and the public.!!
That would be quite confronting no matter how much training you have had.
My fishing spots are so secret........... even the fish don't know where they are !!
petermac
Posts: 2946
Date Joined: 03/03/10
apparently
seems he was on day release from a mental health facility
Lastchance
Posts: 1272
Date Joined: 02/02/09
Hahaha, it would appear that
Hahaha, it would appear that a few have escaped in the past!
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
It took three hits for him
It took three hits for him to go down. Arm, leg and stomach.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
suprising
because their firearms training is so basic.
One of them even had a taser.
Certainly am loathe to criticise people put in this situation, but an experienced shooter naturally assesses the background of where they are firing.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Yep you have a lethal weapon
Yep you have a lethal weapon that can easily kill or injure someone..so you must be very careful not to injure innocent people right. Not these clowns. Why so many shots. Just one in the guts would of sorted that prick out. They should be charged with at very least going armed in public to cause terror [ Because that is exactly what they done ] or even causing grieves bodily harm. Just like we would of been if it was us. Sack them now.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Maybe they should be trained
Maybe they should be trained like the Israeli police Wayne, one shot to the head , no further risk. Then we'd have an army of critics asking why they had to kill the poor deprived soul. Like I said it's survival, this prick is obviously insane and off his collective tits. I'd shoot the fucker 20 times if needed. It's just unfortunate there were innocent bystanders. After all it was a crowded place.
Love the West!
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
training
I know its easy for us to be armchair critics, but after watching that show a couple of years back called "the recruits", following a group of NSW police recruits I must admit to being quite suprised at some of those who were passed.
Many had never had any contact with a firearm before which can be understood.
However some had to be openly coaxed into even touching the firearms initially and one female failed the test numerous times and was coached individually thru it something like 15 times as she couldnt draw it with one hand from the holster.
A pass (from memory) was to draw the weapon, fire two shots into a round target about the size of a 44 lid at 3-5 meters and holster in about 10 seconds.
This is way less than required at SSAA pistol/holster training.
Have also found at our club live .40 cal ammo left in the grass (only law has .40 in WA), and been told by a friend in the game that some simply give away their yearly training quota of ammo as there seems to be no requirement to actually use it!
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Well they all have to start
Well they all have to start somewhere Rob and some are better than others. We all act differently in situations and no matter how much training , being in that type of situation is surreal for the best of them. There are fuck ups from the best of the best even in the SAS. To call these officers useless pricks is just a cheap shit statement.
Love the West!
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
Big difference in training
Big difference in training and amount of training.
WAPOL shoot once a year using level 3 retention duty holsters. With about 50 rounds
When I shot competitive IPSC it was minimum once every 6 weeks. But usually every week. Using a competition holster and minimum of 100 rounds.
The live 40 cal was probably ejected during a stoppage drill and missed in the clean up.
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
not one round, about 8 or 9,
not one round, about 8 or 9, but still an offence for anyone else.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Mulie
Posts: 546
Date Joined: 20/02/11
Gut shots don't stop someone
Gut shots don't stop someone who is amped until their body starts to react as law enforcement use solid projectiles causing minimal trauma. There's no way we want our police to be armed with bullets that fragment on impact with tissue as there is no coming back from being hit by one of these. One of the downsides of using a traditional projectile is that they do pass through and fragment when hitting secondary objects.
Mulie
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
Actually Police use Jacketed
Actually Police use Jacketed hollow points designed to mushroom on impact. Have been since the 38 special revolver days and continues with the 40 cal.
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
great lets just punch broom
great lets just punch broom stick size holes in people
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
Going armed to cause terror
That has got to be the single most retarded , numpte response I've ever heard on here. You're a clown Wayne
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Be funny if you were a
Be funny if you were a bystander and got yourself shot by cops behaving badly Paully. Wonder what you would have to say then. You cant defend anyone police included doing shit like that. You must think the police are above the law well guess what..they aren't. These clowns didn't need to fire of a volley of shots at close range. With people everywhere why not try the tazer. Off to the inspector with them.
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Relax sea kem, we have a
Relax sea kem, we have a difference in opinion. It's great. Iv'e got a lot of cheap shit opinions that you wouldn't agree with.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Good to hear we're on a
Love the West!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Just like they failed to
Just like they failed to judge old mates sanity when they let him out
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
That I agree with.
That I agree with.
Love the West!
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Oh and by the way he didn't
Oh and by the way he didn't have a large knife as reported. He was carrying a small pair of scissors. Cops bull shitting again. Unlucky for the police someone took a pic of it and yep that big knife turned out to be a little pair of scissors LOL but i agree he should of been dealt with even shot..but spare the public from bullets. A public shooting should be avoided at all costs..it wasn't. Apparently a female police officer was quick on the draw but unfortunately a shit shot.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Ok what about we wait untill a precise report comes out.
It has been said above that the three shots fired resulted in hits in the arm, leg and stomach. I don't know just where that info came from, however it remains to be seen in what order he was hit and just what the bystanders where hit with.
Was it pieces of bullet jacket, was it whole projectiles I think it is fair to say that we don't know just what the bystanders where hit with and how bad their injuries are.
There are just so many questions that the public would like answered, and dare I say it no doubt these questions will be answered. The enquiry into the Lyndat (I think that's the name of the place) shooting shows that when people are shot there is a very through investigation into what happened and why.
No doubt we all remember the police shooting which happened in Bentley I think it was where the guy had the lady held at knife point and was shot by a couple of police, her died the hostage was wounded.
We place our trust in these fine men and women to use the tools we arm them with for the protection of the public and themselves. In a split second they have to make a decision which can result in a person loosing their life or in this case resulting in the offender being neutralized and unfortunately 3 bystanders being wounded to what degree and by what we don't know. The police are trained to shoot at the largest part of the person, ie: the chest.
Do we know at what range the police fired on the offender, I haven't read anything to that effect.
Before we make any sort of judgement on these members of the police force lets wait until a lot more facts are available.
wez0062
Posts: 334
Date Joined: 02/09/14
best response
Meglodon, I like your words mate.
Too many arm chair experts & people who think they are too tuff, with just bullshit talk.
Bet we would all be glad if the Police shot someone who potentially was going to harm one of the people we loved, even if we got hit in the process.
Wez0062
quadfisher
Posts: 1146
Date Joined: 28/09/10
Stupid place to fire.
www.smh.com.au/nsw/graphic-footage-police-shooting-of-armed-man-at-westfield-hornsby-caught-on-smartphone-20160609-gpfq4e.html
So many people around , very poor judgement , senior police in damage control over this one , telling
the public just how lucky we all are that he never attacked everyone. I smell a rat.
Thats my opinion thanks , no need to comment , I have read all yours.
quadfisher
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
Trained to shoot to remove
Trained to shoot to remove the threat. Trained to shoot at the largest area of seen mass (ie torso). Its proven that after a person has been shot they can still run up to 7 m. If they carry a knife they can still injury someone. Thats why there is more than one shot.
Unless you have had to point a firearm at someone knowing you may have to pull the trigger in a split second, you will never know what goes through their minds in those few seconds.
If you havent been in that situation yourself, please dont judge them.
Fish! HARD!
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
Ok Wayne I will bite what
Ok Wayne I will bite what would you do.
The call was made that a person was armed with a large kitchen knife in a public place and was shouting Allah Achbar. There have been numerous incidents worldwide of lone wolf terror attacks of a similar nature.
An active armed offender in a busy public area requires an immediate response.
You and your partner respond. You both have bad basic firearms training at static targets in a sterile range, qualify once a year fire less than 50 rounds over an hour. You have a Taser which is a single shot weapon that statistically is effective 50% of the time. Again you train on it once a year but because the cartridges cost $50 each for live ones and $20 for training ones you only fire 3.
You locate the person, no shirt on, yelling, shouting and waving a large bladed knife. You call upon him to not move and put the knife down. He is less than 7 meters from you. At that range FBI research has shown that a person armed with a knife can close and strike several times before the average law enforcement officers can respond.
He responds by running at you and is about to try to kill you. All you are looking at is that knife. Fire one shot, you don't know if you have hit as he is still coming. Fire again, he is still coming and is almost on top of you. Fire again and he falls to the ground.
You then find out that one or two of your rounds have passed through the offender and hit bystanders.
What would you do different?
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Hit bystanders, imagine if
Hit bystanders, imagine if those bullets killed bystanders!!!!! That would be pretty bad for the bystanders! Especially if the person getting shot at lives.
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
^^ You dont expect him
to reply do you billy ?
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
So what would you do
So what would you do different? Let him stab you? Let him stab bystanders?
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
I wouldn't go opening fire
I wouldn't go opening fire with people buying bananas in the background. But that's easy to say from my arm chair
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
So you would let him kill
So you would let him kill you!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
pepper spray id give that a
pepper spray id give that a go first. Then let rip from the hip. Don't become a cop billy.
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
Too late! Already am.Pepper
Too late! Already am.
Pepper spray doesn't work on everyone. Usually takes a few seconds to work. It doesn't normally work on psychotic patients.
It is about 80% psychological and 20% physical.
I have seen a video of a Trg officer cop a full can to the face, enter the range at Maylands and empty 2 mags into the centre of the target.
I have also been fighting with 18 year old somalian in Mirrabooka. I was with two other officers and were struggling on the ground with him. One of my partners gave him a full blast in the face, no effect. Except for secondary to me and my partner.
Took another 2 officers to subdue him.
Madmerv
Posts: 672
Date Joined: 24/01/15
Watch the footage
Bloke was moving pretty quick towards the cop. 2 shots fired and he staggers. Bystander hit with bullet after it has gone through him. Cops reposition and fire third shot to put him down.
Very bad that a bystander got hit in this exchange but for once i'm on the cops side. They responded to the public being thretened by a weapon weilding nutter and then get attacked by him. If they didnt shoot him then we would probably be reading a report of a cop being injured in the line of duty or even killed.
Sometimes when the water is quiet, you can hear the fish laughing at you !
ace rimmer
Posts: 187
Date Joined: 19/08/13
shoot first
I think if anyone is threatening a police officer they should just shoot the perpetrator first rather than risk there own safety, it's a shit of a job and whatever they do they get told they should have done something else
I remember seeing a news report in the US someone attacked a police officer and after a standoff with police the dust had settled a news reporter was interviewing the commanding officer and asked why the police had shot him 63 times and his answer was " that was all the ammo we had at the time"
I am sick of crime and attacks on the public, especially old people
fisharoo
Posts: 297
Date Joined: 02/07/11
I can't imagine that all the
I can't imagine that all the people just standing around while all this took place. Wouldn't they run or clear the area? police has their guns drawn and yelling at the guy to put down his weapon. Yet people are still in close vicinity taking bloody iPhone videos, walking through the situation, lady still buying stuff at the market stalls......
Red Dog
Posts: 311
Date Joined: 13/12/12
Social media reminds of those
Social media reminds of those helicopters with the mini guns on them.
Make a mistake and the guns get turned on ya for a couple of days before the next unfortunate victim comes along.
A big thanks to all the coppers out there who are willing to get up each day and deal with the dregs of society.
Not a job I would want my kids to get into.
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
The critics have hours, days
The critics have hours, days and weeks following these incidents to analyse if the actions of the officers were justified.
The officers themselves had what, minutes? May be even a few seconds to assess decide and respond.
Was any member of the public killed? Was any officer injured?
Would appear the officers made the right decisions in a very short space of time.
Fish! HARD!
quadfisher
Posts: 1146
Date Joined: 28/09/10
Appropriate response?
How ever of course , if someone knocked at your door , middle of the day , upon opening door , he/ she
produces knife and comes towards you , you say drop the knife mate, he doesnt , you produce legal pistol/ shotgun and blow dude away
, you would be charged.
The homeowners response allowed under law has been debated on her before, and there have many cases, some still ongoing,
off the victims of crime being charged.
And so it amazes me, that we still see cases here, and overseas ( think U.S) were the law, can shoot someone, quite legally,
many times, when they just feel threatened, not necessarly are threatened by the same force.
I wonder how Aussie coppers of the 50,s and 60,s would have handled this situation?
maybe I watched too much division4 or Bluey as a kid?.
quadfisher
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
How can that be a direct
How can that be a direct comparison to police officers who are doing a job to a civillian in their own home? By the way there was the Italian guy who shot those morons that broke into his house and threatened him and his wife up Swanview way and was never charged. Like I said above put yourself in the situation and see how you go, I reckon you'd probably empty the magazine in panic trying to put that fella down. And what if they'd done nothing and let him go if and cut a few of those innocent bystanders up because they couldn't subdue him with a taser or pepper spray. I'd bet my bottom dollar you'd be up in arms about them not doing enough.
Love the West!
dano83
Posts: 790
Date Joined: 25/05/12
Isn't this why they have
Isn't this why they have tasers ? For incidents like this Or did they give that a go. I have only vaguely seen the footage so can't really say much..
was everyone crowded around the situation rubbernecking ?
craytail99
Posts: 76
Date Joined: 29/04/14
Definatly a over reaction by
Definatly a over reaction by police taser, spray, and batton are the first line of defence. Police are confronted by whack jobs regularly and they dont shoot all of them. Its a tough job granted but so is being a bouncer, shit shoveller soldier whatever. Regardless the end result was not ideal whichever point of view you take.
chris raff
Posts: 3257
Date Joined: 09/02/10
He had history of homicidal
He had history of homicidal tendencies with cops and was known to them . The reports state he had a knife or whatever and when the cops showed up he had to be pointed out as he was just walking around amongst other people and had his back to them . It was when the cops from behind him yelled to him to put the knife down with their weapons drawn in the crowd that he switched on , turned around and went full retard just at them . I realise it was a spontaneous call but with the benefit of hindsight could a cop just have grabbed a civi jumper and walked in his vicinity and subdued him . It only escalated when they challenged him and given his history the outcome was foreseeable that he wasn’t going to comply . The officer was in self preservation mode which is all well and good for her but not so good for the bystanders which were directly behind . Maybe the only option once they got themselves in that situation unfortunately for her and in the best interests of public safety should’ve been to risk her own well being rather than innocents by pulling her baton out and going all Chuck Norris on him even if it meant taking one for the team until he was overpowered .
“Intelligence is like a four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places.”
Willlo
Posts: 1490
Date Joined: 07/10/11
Back in the day a copper had
Back in the day a copper had to be at least 6 ft. Nowadays with political correctness gone crazy we have tiny little police girls with guns. I wonder what the outcome would have been if it was 2 burly bloke coppers first on the scene? Would think maybe they may have had the confidence to try something less lethal. Alas we will never know. As a side note tho if they come across anybody armed in public and chanting god is great shoot the M#-_ F#!!-kers in the head and save us all the cost of a trial. Feel sorry for the coppers involved screwed whatever happens.
Call Sign - BZ785
Haynes Hunter Prowler CC
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Love the West!
Rob H
Posts: 5745
Date Joined: 18/01/12
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
chris raff
Posts: 3257
Date Joined: 09/02/10
Now because fishos are
“Intelligence is like a four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places.”
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
Would those spuds
be in a purple bag?
edit:
Cruise Control
Posts: 970
Date Joined: 03/11/10
I reckon they did the right
I reckon they did the right thing.
When I was a young bloke working in the bank in the late 70's, those of us that we're tellers were all armed. Yep, under that counter where all the cash was, rested either a Smith and Wesson 38 or a 7mm Beretta We trained twice a year to use it with 50 rounds at the range every 6 months with a police instructor.
What made me laugh was the instructor told us one day, that if we felt the need to pull the pistol and shoot at an armed robber then we has better keep shooting until we ran out of ammo as he reckoned that the first 4 shots would just piss him off and if had a sawn off shotty he would only need one shot !
I've never forgotten that advice. Yep, if it had of been me I would have shot the bastard until he stopped twitching !
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
We are all relying on video and tv reports
I think that prudence requires that before we make a call whether the shooting was called for lets see what the enquiry into the matter comes up with.
As a side note todays "West" reports that the father and son combo who made a "citizens arrest" on a guy who was caught robbing their business have been charged with serious assault. The robber ended up with server head injuries which put him in hospital for a while, robber is yet to be charged. How much force is too much.
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Was that the car business?
Was that the car business? It was about 3 months ago that it happened?
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
Believe so
I think that's the one, didn't say what sort of business in the paper.
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Yep saw them being
Yep saw them being interviewed on the news a wile ago! The police defiantly have a funny way of going about things. You get in trouble for defending your own property! What's the go with that billy?
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Because it's the law! Face
Because it's the law! Face palm! It's the Police's job to uphold the law if you get that concept. Nothing about how they want to go about it. Oh and l think you mean definitely not defiantly, two totally different words.
Love the West!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Come on, you'd be spitting
Come on, you'd be spitting chips if you found someone in your boat taking your prized fishing rod. What are you going to do? Stand around twiddling your fingers? offer the a return trip for 2 to the islands? Or stand around waiting for the boys in blue to show up? You must be one law abiding citizen sea kem.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
Like I said to our friend
Like I said to our friend Wayne if you're going to sort out shit heels stealing your gear , then give them a belting for sure but then don't inform the law. Dump them on the street or whatever. My point is as we've seen now your toast if you try to do the honourable thing and inform the law. If I had've caught the scum that stole my work trailer in the act there would have been no law involved.I feel for those blokes as I know what they are going through with drugged out shit trying to steal their hard earned work gear. The police can only do their job as the law is written I'm sure they feel just as hamstrung as us. I know my old man did who was a Federal copper for years and would see drug runners walk on bail many times, he told me of his frustrations of not being able to put these scum bags away. One of the reasons he quit in the end.
Love the West!
Bryce Day
Posts: 812
Date Joined: 01/06/15
Ahhhh thats where its all
Ahhhh thats where its all coming from!!!
billy69
Posts: 125
Date Joined: 16/01/12
They must have said the
They must have said the wrong thing when interviewed.
Everyone has the legal protection of defence of property as long as reasonable force is used. But if you inflict more force than reasonable ie grievous bodily harm or death you may be charged.
They sank themselves when talking to the press. I remember seeing them on the news and thought at the time they may be in some trouble. Had two different stories.
If you have the belief that you or someone else is at risk of DEATH or GBH. you may use as much force as necessary to protect your self but may be called to justify that force.
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Its bull shit..law for them
Its bull shit..law for them and we punters dare not retaliate or else. A guy in the factory over from us got sick of being robbed [no police patrols even though many complains on this matter] so camped up at night over the weekend to sort the issue out.
Didn't take long for him to catch the arse wipe red handed. Well him being a big guy grabbed the offender and in the struggle he wacked him once or twice as you would.
Locked him in a room and calls the cops..Along come the cops after about a hour and guess what..they let the would be thief go [ young teenager of the cant charge them variety ] and took the property owner away and charged him with something on the line of unlawful imprisonment and if the arse wipe complained of being hit he would be charged with assault. This sort of thing pisses a lot of people off. Yet the police can shoot the shit out of you because you wont drop your weapon in this case a pair of scissors.
They keep saying large knife WhyTF do they need to bull shit like this for.. And Billy if it were me and only because I had a badge on I would shoot any f*cker who came close to me yelling their shit allah akbar even if their weapon was a toy knike. But not if there were people left right and centre behind the target. Whats wrong with pulling out the baton and belting him with that or even the taser which would of droped him in his tracks.
This police officer is like many a cop these day..not up to it. After her effort we had people laying injured all over the place. Please someone take her gun off of her before she kills a innocent. And for that matter disarm all female officers. You would think none are capable of handling a weapon.
sea-kem
Posts: 14853
Date Joined: 30/11/09
maybe your mate should have
maybe your mate should have been a little smarter and not called the cops. And this bullshit you keep reffering to Wayne is reported by the media. The other comments you make regarding females cops etc is just utter garbage.
Love the West!
craytail99
Posts: 76
Date Joined: 29/04/14
Spot on
Spot on
Paully
Posts: 3246
Date Joined: 15/08/09
You're a FWit Wayne
Lastchance
Posts: 1272
Date Joined: 02/02/09
Well constructed arguement
Well constructed arguement there OW. Fair and valid points. Maybe we shouldnt allow the female cops to drive either? They are probably shit at that too?
Id like to see what you would actually do if you were ever in a situation like this, I bet you would shit yourself and pray for the police to save your sorry ass.
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
Ha. I'll put you in front
Ha. I'll put you in front of a female police officer armed with a glock, taser, baton, OC spray, and handcuffs.
Lets see you tell her she shouldnt carry a weapon and you're going to take it off her and then see how far you get.
They all do the same training. They all do the same assessment. They all have to qualify and requalify the same way.
Thats is a ridiculous proposition OW.
Fish! HARD!
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
It may be Randall but I bet
It may be Randall but I bet if she pull the glock out and you were behind me..you would be diving for cover cause there would be an above average chance you'd go done too. LOL
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
Yes i would take cover. Im
Yes i would take cover. Im not stupid. But theres actually very slim chance a trained officer will miss. Did any bullets actually miss in this instance?
Fish! HARD!
craytail99
Posts: 76
Date Joined: 29/04/14
Have you seen many validation
Have you seen many validation shoots lol
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
I dont understand the
I dont understand the question. But if youre asking me about justified shootings, on more than one occasion i have aimed a firearm at someone with the knowledge i may have to pull the trigger. Thankfully for everyone it didnt eventuate. I personally know someone who has shot and killed someone and the coroner found it was justifable homicide. He saved a girls life in doing so. In that instance the offender was holding a knife to her throat. He has never recovered mentally from having to do that. And that was a long time ago. It ended up costing him his career. As i said earlier, if you havent been in that position you dont know what goes through their minds. I have been, and i know others who have been. Its not something taken lightly or judged by others without the knowledge or all the facts.
Fish! HARD!
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
Or if you mean qualifying
Or if you mean qualifying shoots, i have participated in them frequently for the last 31 years. My last was about 4 weeks ago.
Fish! HARD!
craytail99
Posts: 76
Date Joined: 29/04/14
Yep qualifying shoots, you
Yep qualifying shoots, you know the type, the ones where everybody passes regardless of the results. As far as having guns and knives waved in front of your face or used in anger it is as common as muck just dosent get reported.
War stories are like opinions everyone has them but thats not what this thread is about. Now whilst I do have some sympathy for those involved the end result was far from ideal. Lethal force is the last resort and so it should be, it seems from the information availiable spray, taser or batton were not attempted.
Now whilst I will probably be labelled sexist, in my experience on average I would much rather have a male with a bit of dash dealing with a violent physical confrontation than a female.
Dealing with distraught women at a domestic is another matter entirely and women ususally excell at that, horses for courses.
Spray and pray isnt a solution it just creates more problems.
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
You say baton taser spray
You say baton taser spray werent used and youre critical about going straight to lethal force. They are not trained to go first for oc, and then put that away and take out a baton, and then put that away and take out their taser..... theyre trained to assess and respond. Choose the appropriate justifable force level necessary. Any other action and theyre likely to lose control and then it will end very badly.
Fish! HARD!
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
We all know its political
We all know its political correctness gone mad..I know a female police officer and she in matters like crowd control arresting nasty pricks and so on is as useless as tits on a bull. Stands about as high as knee high to a grasshopper. And by the way she hasn't got a clue on usefully using a weapon. Pity help us if she had to use it.
randall df223
Posts: 6454
Date Joined: 08/08/11
If the latter half of that
If the latter half of that statement has any truth about it at all your friend wouldnt be allowed to carry a firearm. Simple. No qualify = no carry.
Fish! HARD!
craytail99
Posts: 76
Date Joined: 29/04/14
Again spot on
Again spot on
D_d_001
Posts: 1522
Date Joined: 09/03/13
hahahhaha."knee high to a
hahahhaha.
"knee high to a grasshopper.... crowd control and out there arresting nasty pricks"
What a f*&^ing legend I say ! sounds like she's got balls bigger than most of us !!!
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
She's qualified alright. Like
She's qualified alright. Like someone has said very little training is put in to them. Most of the time she is used for settling domestics.
craytail99
Posts: 76
Date Joined: 29/04/14
You sure your not a cop lol
You sure your not a cop lol
out wide
Posts: 1535
Date Joined: 30/12/08
Andy this is what's going
Andy this is what's going around you would think it is what was said..
Assistant Commissioner Denis Clifford said the male and female officers were in a life and death situation when psychiatric patient Jerry Sourian ran at them armed with a large carving knife.